Emma Tustin is a murderer

[DueyCheatemAndHow]

Finally. We can say it.

I've just utterly broken down for Arthur.

@snowballer I understand that but these two are just as evil and I think we need to send a message as a society about how seriously we take child abuse and murder.

Musafa, I replied to your comment because I found it offensive. It plays into the old idea that there is something wrong or bad about women who don’t want children. I also find tying this to child abuse baseless - you appear to be saying that there is a sliding scale of people, from those who like children to those who hate them, with where you are on the scale determining whether you’re likely to abuse or not. I don’t think it works like that.

I won’t be getting into whether I think this is the same as racism (I don’t) with you as it’s starting to derail the thread.

Good to hear the breaking news that this pair are out of circulation for decades, and hopefully longer than the minimum.

I really don't think taking money for the care of vulnerable adults for the care of vulnerable children is a particularly helpful suggestion.

Do you think the length of the published sentences here will act as a deterrent for anyone who is currently abusing a child?

I found the paternal grandmother's statement a bit odd, no blame laid whatsoever at her son's door.

@AndreaC67

I must admit the sentencing seems rather lenient, unlike most people i don't wish her harm in prison, thats not what it is there for but they both should have got whole life tariffs, certainly she should have.

They will out late 50s early 60s, with plenty of life left to live.

If they are ever released they will be under parole conditions, liable to recall if they break the conditions, eg having to live where they are told to, limited access to social media, strict conditions about contact with vulnerable people eg children, no passport etc. No less than they deserve but release on parole does not imply freedom by any means. I imagine that by 2050 when she will be eligible electronic tagging and monitoring will be greatly improved with far less opportunity to slip away.

[quote Bagelsandbrie]@snowballer I understand that but these two are just as evil and I think we need to send a message as a society about how seriously we take child abuse and murder.[/quote]
On an emotional level I agree with you. However the judge has to follow the sentencing guidelines, not his/her heart.

@vickyp0llard I don't think it's ok for you to say that you dislike all children because you don't like their behaviour, no. Their behaviour is like that because they are weak and vulnerable. And we were all children once. I don't think it's ok to say that you dislike any group of human beings! You don't have to actually be a parent, but I don't think it's ok to dislike children as a whole. Especially because they are so vulnerable which is what makes them act the way they do. I don't think we should talk about vulnerable people like that. Should we talk about any other group like that would it be ok?
Eg.
I don't like black people.
I don't like Asians

Would you think that is acceptable?
Children are human beings too

@MadgeMak

I found the paternal grandmother's statement a bit odd, no blame laid whatsoever at her son's door.

Agreed. No acknowledgement of him except to say he wouldn't have died if he hadn't met ET? She didn't force him to join in the cruelty inflicted on him.

@vickyp0llard
? Children are inherently different to adults as they are not fully developed, they can be difficult, noisy, need a lot of attention and stressful to be around.

And adults can be violent, racist, materialistic, selfish etc .. as well as loud, stressful etc ... But to say "I dont like adults full-stop" is frowned upon. Saying I dont like children is kind of ignorant and prejudiced IMO. They are not some different species, they're just younger humans.

@snowballer yes I agree. I think I am just so sickened and outraged by the whole thing. I’m one of those weird people who reads a lot of true crime stuff and is very interested in the psychology of criminals but this case has really upset me to the core.

@AndreaC67 No-one is saying her crime isn't abhorrent, but the reason Couzens was given the whole life was due to abuse of his office and exploiting a national emergency situation (lockdown etc) to commit his murder.

@MadgeMak

I found the paternal grandmother's statement a bit odd, no blame laid whatsoever at her son's door.

Yes I noted that too. She seems to have exonerated her son despite his abuse before he met ET.

Also their behaviour preventing the poor boys burial.

@bubblesbubbles11

Do you think the length of the published sentences here will act as a deterrent for anyone who is currently abusing a child?

I don’t for a single second. I don’t think anyone who is abusing someone gives any thought to custodial sentences.

This is the most disturbing murder case I have ever read about. Can't stop thinking about it - the sheer human sadism and depravity it reveals. Can't stop hearing that murdered boy wail, 'Nobody loves me' (wish I hadn't watched the video).

There MUST be a proper inquiry into how this was allowed to happen, given that so many different people reported concerns for Arthur's welfare to the authorities, and he himself told teachers he was afraid his dad would kill him.

This isn't a case of child abuse being craftily hidden from view. Look at the photo of the bruising the grandmother sent to social workers. There's no way a bruise like that could be caused by horseplay with another child, yet SS swallowed that explanation - why? Because they were overworked and couldn't be bothered investigating further? Because they were afraid of Tustin and Hughes and were looking for a reason not to confront them? Because lockdown gave everyone an excuse for shirking their duties? Or ultimately because, as other posters have suggested, child services these days prioritise parents' rights over the welfare of children?

Some posters here have provided really good analyses of what is going wrong with children's services, and how the system might be improved. But how will this happen if if there isn't an external inquiry, headed by people OUTSIDE the current system? Is there any public pressure for an inquiry of this nature? Is this a campaign Mumsnet could get behind? What about a Royal Commission? (I understand there hasn't been one in the UK since 2000).

@bubblesbubbles11

Do you think the length of the published sentences here will act as a deterrent for anyone who is currently abusing a child?

We are getting better. The stepfather of Maria Colwell was imprisoned for eight years, reduced to four on appeal. I remember that case vividly, it was the one which was supposed to wake the country up to deal with child abuse and family murder once and for all.

She liked her hair appointments, tattoos and other luxuries probably funded by her children’s’ and Arthur’s benefits. She won’t have access to this in prison plus bad food and incarceration I think there is every chance she will indeed be a wizened old shrew by the time she is free.

@MaryAndGerryLivingInDerry I agree. I think Tustin herself thought until yesterday she’d get away with it. It’s like she almost believed her lies herself. These people think they’re untouchable.

[quote Bagelsandbrie]@snowballer yes I agree. I think I am just so sickened and outraged by the whole thing. I’m one of those weird people who reads a lot of true crime stuff and is very interested in the psychology of criminals but this case has really upset me to the core.[/quote]
To be fair (I've just looked up the guidelines to refresh my memory) one the instances suitable for a whole life is the murder of a child where kidnapping and/or sexual or sadistic motivation is involved. I suppose this could have been argued here but the judge clearly felt it didn't meet the bar. We only know what we've read in the papers. I'll be interested to read the full sentencing remarks.

Not in any way excusing the actions of either of the murderers, but what makes a human become like them - is this the culmination of generations of neglect, or some kind of mental and emotional deficiency? It's just incomprehensible what they did to that little boy. I know Arthur's mother is in prison herself but she just must want to rip that evil pair's heads off. And what lasting effect will this have on Tustin's other children who are also innocent victims. I wonder why she had some children taken away by social services, but they allowed Arthur to stay in her care. People should be losing their jobs over this.

Viques I remember the Maria Colwell case too and I was only a child. Her father was a well known bully in the area they lived in. I believe it was Brighton?

She had two of her own children in her care it was the two older removed, she’s four kids in total, and was pregnant when she murdered Arthur, although she then aborted, so Inc Arthur there were three kids living in the house.

Hughes will only serve 2/3 of his sentence! Where's the Justice in that?

@Sombra

I really don't think taking money for the care of vulnerable adults for the care of vulnerable children is a particularly helpful suggestion.

Why? Why should the lives of vulnerable adults be more important than the lives of vulnerable children?

Sarah Everard's killer was a police officer who abused the power of that role. It's a very different case to this, which is sad but unfortunately not uncommon

Whole life orders are reserved for extremely serious cases (like serial killers, for example), not for extremely emotive ones

Men killing women is extremely common, around 3 a week, as is kidnap and rape.

Couzins wasn't a serial killer and the case was also very emotive.

I really don't see why she should ever see the light of day or the lads father to be honest.

Do you not think they both also abused their position of power?