Crossing the channel in boats

[MarshaBradyo]

Listening to radio re terrible situation on the water but also in camps in France

It all sounds very hard

What would you like to see happen?

@Tal45

I would like to see the countries they originate from made safe so they don't have to leave their home. Far easier said than done I know.

The reason many of these people need to leave their home countries has in many cases to do with Britain selling arms and agitating the political situation in these places.

@Canigooutyet

France have had years to find solutions s and seemingly do very little. What are they doing about the people smuggling? They could put more patrols on the parts of the coast where boats can be launched.

They have something like 300km coastline in across north France. If we make the preferred shorter and "safer" routes impassable, the people smugglers will set the refugees sail from other, less preferred longer and more dangerous routes. It's impossible to patrol the whole lot, all day and all night. It doesn't take more than a few minutes to launch a small boat.

I don't think we force anyone to come over in this way so not sure what you mean by that? We also take those that come over legally. Are you saying we should continue to allow this to go on? Our NHS is already suffering, housing shortages, benefit caps, schools are packed and oh lets just build on every field to sort the issue, sod the natural wild-life which has already reduced massively thanks to humans.

If anyone is interested in the human side of this tragedy, this twitter thread is a good start
twitter.com/lewis_goodall/status/1463106096336363521?s=21

France received 3 times as many asylum applications as the UK did last year. People who continue on to UK usually have ties here or speak English or both.

@cloudtree

I think unfortunately whilst the rumours persist that the streets of London are paved with gold, people will always try anything possible to get here. The reality is they would probably be better off staying in numerous other European countries that they reach first.

Many of them speak some English, have links to England through colonialism or previous employ, and perhaps family members or friends already living here.

Think about it, you're a young person from wartorn Syria who had fled in fear of your life, hoping to make a new life in a different country Where would you choose, if you had the choice of living either
a) somewhere where you had basic / intermediate language skills and knew that you'd get a welcome and a bed from a cousin until you found your feet
OR
b) A country where you knew no one and you didn't speak a word of the language

Plus the terrible conditions and unfriendly police atmosphere in which they're living in France cannot make them think "D'you know what; it's so not so bad here in France, I think I'll just stay here".

@MarshaBradyo

What follows is one POV from France, not a French POV.

Some politicians are making the argument that encouraging/talking up the prospect of “free passage” is potentially only going to make matters worse.”

The fear seems to be any such scheme will increase the “pull” factor - it could be construed as “get yourself to Calais and the Brits will take you”….

Many of the Calais locals interviewed on TV this lunchtime do seem genuinely upset by what has happened but exasperated by the way so many migrants express a wish to get to the UK…nothing else, nowhere else will do…

As for the French official response on the ground….I’ve seen some of the images in the UK MSM, some don’t look good but and as always they will be a snapshot and perhaps don’t not give an objective picture of what goes on all along the coast….

Rubber bullets were fired in the last month in an attempt to stop at least one launch.

The CRS have been raiding camps in the last week or two and trying/forcing people onto buses with a view to getting them to reception centers (often well away from the beaches) but according to anecdote at least plenty of migrants head back to the beaches PDQ because they really have no interest in staying In France….more round ups (and that expression/act is emotive for some ) of migrants in/around Calais this AM ………

Despite some MSM coverage many dinghy launches have been stymied but people are massively motivated to take the risk and get in the water and head for the UK…there’s a limit to the amount of force the Gendarmes/Border Police can use…

[quote DuncinToffee]If anyone is interested in the human side of this tragedy, this twitter thread is a good start
twitter.com/lewis_goodall/status/1463106096336363521?s=21[/quote]
Thank you. I was just thinking to post that. Excellent journalism.
I'm shocked by some of the inhuman responses on this thread.

We also take those that come over legally

@Appledrop - Your reminder that it IS entirely legal in international law to seek asylum in this way; people arriving on small boats are not illegal immigrants, they are asylum seekers. This is a very important point which you seem to have missed. And a very large proportion of them do have their cases for asylum upheld and are granted right to remain.

So, we send every one back to France, and then France have to send them back, to there predecessing country. It will never end.
We need to find a system where getting on a tiny boat in the dark and risking your life isnt the better than the alternative.

This article is helpful in understanding that the tabloid view of the French response is a tad economical with the truth.
www.thelocal.fr/20211125/opinion-france-protects-uk-from-migrant-crisis-a-fact-britain-will-never-accept/

If the UK bought asylum seekers into the UK for free, the trafficking market would collapse overnight.

It’s a very sad situation but entirely predictable. Ultimately I feel that no country wants to take responsibility for these people and are trying to do as little as possible to help the situation. I can understand that to a certain extent because to offer help and to simplify the process could end up with overwhelming numbers which no country could manage.

I feel that it would be fairer to process applications for asylum as close to where they live as possible. Literally in the next safe country. This would cut down unnecessary dangerous travel and hopefully ensure that they have proper documentation and that they are genuinely in need. Anyone proving to be applying for economic reasons (not asylum) should be turned down at that stage and encouraged to apply through the proper channels as we would have to if moving abroad.

The other idea I read was to process applications on a cruise ship or similar, which would be better than a camp.

Ultimately I’ve been a bit annoyed by the reporting of this (admittedly tragic) latest case and how the blame seems to always fall on the uk.

I haven’t heard France criticised for holding then in unsanitary conditions and for not providing the same level of help we provide. Can you imagine the uproar if we kept everyone in camps over here? It’s ridiculous the difference between the countries and what is offered. If all countries agreed on the same package provided, then there would be no desperate rush to cross the channel and risk lives.

As it is, this will continue to happen, and people of the uk will become less sympathetic, because it becomes inevitable. Especially when no one in government seems to have the will or power to do anything (from all countries)..

Contrary to popular belief, it is not just the uks problem to solve and needs to be a worldwide agreement. Including helping to stabilise their own countries.

[quote HilaryThorpe]This article is helpful in understanding that the tabloid view of the French response is a tad economical with the truth.
www.thelocal.fr/20211125/opinion-france-protects-uk-from-migrant-crisis-a-fact-britain-will-never-accept/[/quote]
Thanks for that link, from which…

“ The great majority of the people who illegally (and invisibly) cross land borders into France every day are people who speak a little French and have family or contacts in France. They want to stay in France.”

That’s ties in with our experience of what goes on locally (near the Spanish border).

We are a tiny island already over cowered and so many people living in poverty. These people clearly need somewhere safe to call home but while there are so many people here already needing homes and financial support then we really can't offer help to more untill we have sorted out people here already.
Some decent camps need setting up for them where they can access food and warm clothes untill there is a solution. Leaving them like stray animals is not an option.

@RubyTuesday70

It must be a horrendous situation to be in, but then I think we're encouraging it by offering housing/benefits and the myth of the land of plenty.

We just don't have the housing/healthcare/education facilities to have thousands of migrants landing daily.

A really uneducated stance, and a very damaging one.

Slightly facetious answer - in response to the picture of French police sitting in their car watching the launching of boats. The have guns, why not just walk up to the boat and pop it? Too simplistic? Maybe, but it gets away from the excuse that they don't want to arrest these people.

In the main, I want better access to asylum direct from the countries they are coming from, or perhaps from the refugee camps in the Middle East. I want preference for women and children, and families. Stable family units.

My concern is all these young men, 90% of the 25,000, what on earth are they all going to do here? They can't be left to just disappear, or wander around with no goal or aim. Do they need education, training, assistance to get jobs? We have to do more to enable them to be an asset to UK Plc. That all takes will, time and cash.

Finally, if we grant asylum to all these (mostly) young men, who are pleading their case, under what reasons are they granted asylum? Surely most of them have the same case, and then surely that would apply to most/all who could potentially come here and apply equally. So where does it stop? If all and everyone eventually is granted asylum, do we accept everyone, from everywhere, which is obviously unsustainable.

I'd like people to be given accurate statistics about how many more migrants many European countries take than the UK, and about how many times fewer migrants have come this year than in previous years (obviously covid-related, but other reasons too). The channel crossings have increased hugely, but not the actual numbers of immigrants. There needs to be better distribution of immigrants so that certain areas don't need to deal with huge numbers, but overall, the UK has the space, and could certainly have the resources for the education, housing, healthcare etc if it chose to direct funds that way - that's the fault of the governments, rather than the number of migrants, and the lack of resources in those areas would be a problem even if there were no migrants at all. In fact, many sectors would be worse, without people to do many of the jobs.

I think there should be legal passageways for them to enter, and proper support in the camps and when they arrive.

I know volunteers who try to help the refugees in Calais.
What happens to those people, including the women and children, is the very worst kind of abuse. The authorities there are complicit. What happens to the children is the stuff of nightmares.
My DS volunteered in a Syrian refugee camp. None of the foreign aid money was getting anywhere near those people. So even the "official" camps are absolute hell holes. Starvation, rape and violence are everyday life.
What is needed are safe, humane centres where asylum claims can be processed, in every country where refugees arrive, instead of herding vulnerable people on to the next place. It is obvious that people will die at every stage they are moved on.

I think it's probably true to say that nobody wants to see anyone mistreated in the way that is happening and would like to see them taken care of appropriately but sadly it's also probably true that not all of those same people would be willing to have their services and facilities compromised to allow that to happen.

@endofthelinefinally

I know volunteers who try to help the refugees in Calais. What happens to those people, including the women and children, is the very worst kind of abuse. The authorities there are complicit. What happens to the children is the stuff of nightmares. My DS volunteered in a Syrian refugee camp. None of the foreign aid money was getting anywhere near those people. So even the "official" camps are absolute hell holes. Starvation, rape and violence are everyday life. What is needed are safe, humane centres where asylum claims can be processed, in every country where refugees arrive, instead of herding vulnerable people on to the next place. It is obvious that people will die at every stage they are moved on.

I have a relative who did too. I’d like to ask more about it. Sounds really tough and inhumane

Finally, if we grant asylum to all these (mostly) young men, who are pleading their case, under what reasons are they granted asylum? Surely most of them have the same case, and then surely that would apply to most/all who could potentially come here and apply equally. So where does it stop? If all and everyone eventually is granted asylum, do we accept everyone, from everywhere, which is obviously unsustainable.

I’m not sure what the reasons are, be interested to know more. And I take your second point about how you distinguish, also what happens if it’s a no?

NotImagain I appreciate French perspective re police.

Just on the camps how do people feel about what they are like? It does sound hard

@cloudtree

I think unfortunately whilst the rumours persist that the streets of London are paved with gold, people will always try anything possible to get here. The reality is they would probably be better off staying in numerous other European countries that they reach first.

People will deny this but IME it's very true. I'm part African so I've had family friends growing who came illegally. My own mum came at 20 (legally) and idolised the place when she was younger. They even brought KFC home when she visited London as a child.

Now, the people I know didn't come in boats I don't think. But the mentality of London being this amazing place- it exists and people are clearly willing to die to get here (obviously hoping they'll get safety, unlike the others).

Some will be refugees but lots of people come for socio economic prospects too.

In terms of what the camps are like I would say imagine your very worst and x by 10