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Kyle Rittenhouse not guilty?

514 replies

weegiemum · 19/11/2021 18:35

How? He shot 2 people dead in front of witnesses, but apparently it was "self defence"?

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/nov/19/kyle-rittenhouse-verdict-kenosha-shooting?CMP=ShareiOSAppp_Other

OP posts:
LondonWolf · 21/11/2021 09:30

My fear, as a previous poster said, is he will have nowhere to go but right.

HooverIsAlwaysBroken · 21/11/2021 09:31

I think this thread is chilling.

I have followed this case but not because I am particularly interested in an idiot boy running around with a gun (as did so many others that night).

I have followed it because of the outright lies in the media narrative. I watched part of the footage from the testimonies and the prosecutor sat with his head in his hands as the case crumbled. And yet, the media kept their own false narrative.

What I find is chilling is that Rittenhouse was painted as “the bad guy” and as such he “should have been convicted” regardless of evidence. The rioters were “the good guys” and “should have been avenged” by the jury. It is a complete disregard for equality in front of the law.

LondonWolf · 21/11/2021 09:44

@HooverIsAlwaysBroken

I think this thread is chilling.

I have followed this case but not because I am particularly interested in an idiot boy running around with a gun (as did so many others that night).

I have followed it because of the outright lies in the media narrative. I watched part of the footage from the testimonies and the prosecutor sat with his head in his hands as the case crumbled. And yet, the media kept their own false narrative.

What I find is chilling is that Rittenhouse was painted as “the bad guy” and as such he “should have been convicted” regardless of evidence. The rioters were “the good guys” and “should have been avenged” by the jury. It is a complete disregard for equality in front of the law.

Great summary. And totally confirmed by multiple posters on this thread.
Intheopinionofourexpert · 21/11/2021 10:01

Why on earth would any ordinary person here be following this closely? Just why?Here we have gas, inflation, the whole thing with govt retrospectivrly changing rules, covid what's happening, NI brexit etc.. Europe there's plenty too.. One that springs to mind is Belarus. Globally there's awful things happening all over the place.

Why on earth would the average Brit be closely following this? They wouldn't be and they aren't.

Because many of us are interested in world affairs. Because it was an interesting case where US law is very different from the UK. Because by following current affairs closely, it's possible to have a better insight into what's happening across the world and form opinions which are not based on soundbites and inaccuracies.

TheHoneyBadger · 21/11/2021 10:02

The power amassed and potentially abused by western media moguls is of interest to everyone surely. UK media has been utterly bizarre throughout covid for example and we're currently realising our own issues with how much sway lobbying groups have over our institutions.

The complete disconnect between the facts of the case and it's portrayal by the media and elected politicians in very high positions is alarming and completely echoes trends that go far further than the USA. The level of tribal manipulation v responsible leadership is a theme we can all relate to and be concerned about.

The agenda of stirring up hatred between different groups of poor people and the ever more obvious divide and rule tactics being employed against us and how much people are buying into it and the subsequent spiralling tribalism and polemics in all walks of life that forces truth and rationality off of the table is again a massive concern.

If you can't see how any of this is relevant then I really don't know what to say. There is a dumbing down, hyperbolic, divisive and destructive trend going on that is downright alarming and dangerous and it's tendrils are everywhere. It's worth keeping an eye on imo Hmm

FOJN · 21/11/2021 10:12

HooverIsAlwaysBroken

Your post sums it up in a nutshell. There are a couple of other things about this thread which are quite frightening.

Some posters seems to think it's inconceivable that anyone could think the verdict is correct by objectively considering the facts; does hat tell me that all of their opinions are informed by their political leanings?

As LondonWolf pointed out you are branded a hate filled right winger if you question the narrative which leads to those of us with left of centre views correcting such mistaken assumption, however, it also means we unwittingly participate in the demonisation of right wing politics by being so quick to distance ourselves despite the fact it is a legitimate and mainstream political perspective. Them and us narratives are divisive and very unhelpful, there is a difference between the mainstream right wing and extremists.

EsmaCannonball · 21/11/2021 10:12

I became interested in this case when some journalists started pointing out the disconnect between the facts of the case and the ideological reporting of it, and how disturbing it is that ideological partisanship is seen as more important than facts, truth and the principle of the law. The case ties in with a lot of things I am interested in at the moment in regards to ideological reporting and opinion piece journalism bleeding into what should be factual hard news. During the recent Netflix walkout the AP press agency reported that a counter-protester (again, not somebody whose entire ideology would be my cup of tea) was pushing against the crowd and shouting obscenities. The actual footage showed that the opposite was true. The press liked the ideology of the Netflix crowd and didn't like the counter-protesters so they just out-and-out lied. The press skewed the reporting of the Wi Spa incident, making it about bigoted right-wing women and ignoring the bit about the convicted sex offender in the women-only area. Once you start seeing this stuff you see it is everywhere and it makes you very distrustful of the media. Hard news journalists used to pride themselves on chasing down the unbiased facts, but now journalism has been overtaken by ideology and winning the argument. For me this isn't about liking Rittenhouse or his past or future politics, but about the principles of a fair trial and unbiased factual journalism.

TheHoneyBadger · 21/11/2021 10:27

Absolutely and that lazy right wing is evil/left wing are snowflakes stuff means no parties have to actually represent anyone or come up with meaningful intelligent policies and be held accountable for them. We can just have a pantomine oh boos and cheers depending on what team you're on. We're being conditioned to be morons by an elite class who make barely a pretence at being democratic representatives of the people with the responsible leadership of societies as their principle motivation.

The people have become the pantomime audience with the media telling us when to laugh or cry or boo and hiss. There are two perceived 'sides' to identify with to make you feel like you have some kind of autonomy and keep you arguing amongst yourselves and to make sure you know exactly what hymn sheet you should be singing from if you don't want to be accused of being the bogeymen of your tribe ie. snowflake, transphobe, woke, racist, right wing, anarchist, little englander, terrorist sympathiser, fascist etc etc.

I genuinely worry that people are becoming infantilised and extremely biddable and being at all balanced or nuanced in your thinking or analysis or politics makes you a target of abuse to bring you into line. Who does any of this serve? Certainly not you and I. Certainly not black people or white working class here or in the US no matter how much people stir them up against each other.

A supposedly respectable newspaper reported that 3 black people were killed - do we genuinely believe that was mistake or was it deliberate? Either way is mindblowing. People are having their world views shaped and the way we see each other and who we hand over our power mandate to by these publications.

TheHoneyBadger · 21/11/2021 10:30

People don't have differences of opinion or perspective anymore, we don't have debate and rational discussion, they call each other evil and stick their fingers in their ears and shout names and accusations at each other.

Ideology matters more than facts and ethics now.

ldontWanna · 21/11/2021 10:34

It's mindboggling that people keep repeating "facts" that not only haven't been proved, but some of them actively disproved. Even more shocking is the conviction with which they state them and refusal to even consider the alternative.

There are many issues with the laws, systemic racism ,guns etc in America. That doesn't make KR automatically guilty. The changes needed should ensure that this situation couldn't have have happened.

ldontWanna · 21/11/2021 10:36

Oh and there's another massive and high profile trial brewing at the moment, but not a lot being said. The cynic in me wonders how much of the media attention, deliberate distortion of facts and fanning the flames is a calculated distraction.

MaxNormal · 21/11/2021 10:37

@EsmaCannonball you've summed up perfectly all the recent thoughts I've been having, but far more eloquently than I've had managed.

And that is why this case fascinated me. It's a perfect microcosm of all of that.

FOJN · 21/11/2021 10:39

EsmaCannonball

Repent motherfucker Grin

Sorry, couldn't resist.

BelleHathor · 21/11/2021 10:52

@ldontWanna

Oh and there's another massive and high profile trial brewing at the moment, but not a lot being said. The cynic in me wonders how much of the media attention, deliberate distortion of facts and fanning the flames is a calculated distraction.
The Ghislaine Maxwell trial? If so I fully agree and have considered whether the focus on KR is keeping eyes off that case which implicates far more high profile figures.
ldontWanna · 21/11/2021 10:59

@BelleHathor yup. The timing of it all and the very public and persistent fanning of flames of KR's trial is very convenient and coincidental.

BelleHathor · 21/11/2021 11:14

Definitely Idontwanna. I'm also suspicious of the PR style reporting that's been happening recently.Good morning Britain had her brother on last week basically saying GM would never do that...... and Rachel Johnson wrote a really weird article about how it's hard not to pity GM: www.spectator.co.uk/article/it-s-hard-not-to-pity-ghislaine-maxwell

Spectre8 · 21/11/2021 15:00

Agree with so many posters up above about the ideaology. Its the same with covid. A person who is happy to take other vacinnes but decides they don't want a covid vacinne is automatically labelled as anti-vax. No they are not anti-vax if they have had other vacinnes they are just anto-covid vaccine. But hell or high water will anyone actually think that, no they are anti-vax.

Utterly ridiculous.

Back to KR case, despite the prosecution finding no links to white supremacy that many call him or said he was, moments after the verdict was announced you have those same politicians and media still trying to tie it back to white supremacy. Honestly. I think some posters are right, dumbing down people so they don't look too hard or think critically is definately happening.

You can throw this fact in many peoples faces but they will still refuse to believe it. Terrifying that even facts, cold hard facts no longer have value anymore.

It used to be if you opposed the left wing views you were more right wong, now your labelled a populist!

If you try and point out whats happening in the world your labelled a consipirac theorist for example when many people over a year ago said vaccine passports would become required and queue lots of your a conspiracy theorist blah blah and well look where we are today.

Whislt we argue against each other we don't see what is really going on

TomPinch · 21/11/2021 20:21

Joe Biden said:

While the verdict in Kenosha will leave many Americans feeling angry and concerned, myself included, we must acknowledge that the jury has spoken.

I do think this was at best clumsy by Joe Biden. In essence, he's said he accepts the role of the court but says they got in wrong.

I reckon it's a lot better if elected politicians stay in their lane and allow the courts to do their job.

mathanxiety · 22/11/2021 04:29

What I find is chilling is that Rittenhouse was painted as “the bad guy” and as such he “should have been convicted” regardless of evidence. The rioters were “the good guys” and “should have been avenged” by the jury. It is a complete disregard for equality in front of the law.

I would like to put forward the suggestion that anyone who joins a riot, regardless of what they think they are there to do or whose side they're on, and regardless of the colour of their skin, is a rioter. Anyone who joins a riot equipped with a loaded gun is guilty of whatever is done with that gun. It's as reckless as bringing a wheelbarrow full of molotov cocktails along to the party.

I also suggest that there was one charge that Kyle Rittenhouse was definitely guilty of, and his defense as much as admitted that.

www.nytimes.com/2021/11/19/us/kyle-rittenhouse-charges-acquittal.html
First-degree recklessly endangering safety
The law defines this crime as recklessly endangering another person’s safety under circumstances that show utter disregard for human life. Mr. Rittenhouse was charged with this crime for firing shots at two people he did not hit: Richard McGinnis and an unknown man. The crime is a class F felony that carries a basic sentence of up to 12 and a half years in prison, a fine of up to $25,000, or both, for each of the two counts.

www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2021/11/19/kyle-rittenhouse-verdict/8588251002/
Although Grosskreutz was armed with a pistol, Rosenbaum and Huber were not. Prosecutors said Rittenhouse should have fled or fought without firing his gun if he feared for his safety, but the defense argued he thought the men could take his firearm and use it to kill him or others.

Guilty because he knew his loaded weapon was dangerous, and also because specifically feared he would lose control of his loaded weapon, and because he fired shots at others too. There are people alive today just because he was a poor shot.

mathanxiety · 22/11/2021 04:50

Those of you who are denying that Rittenhouse was a right wing, racist zealot might like to take note of this:

The formation of the Kenosha Guard militia group[43] was announced by former Kenosha alderman Kevin Mathewson in response to the George Floyd protests, which preceded the Kenosha protests.[44] On August 25, Mathewson put out a call on the Kenosha Guard Facebook page for "patriots willing to take up arms and defend" Kenosha.[44]

www.chicagotribune.com/news/breaking/ct-kenosha-wisconsin-militia-social-media-shooting-20200828-aenx5ropmrfmtca34ezqvhwe7e-story.html
After two straight nights of violent unrest, former alderman Kevin Mathewson posted a call to arms on the Facebook page of his fledgling militia group Kenosha Guard.

Formed in the days after George Floyd was killed by police in Minneapolis, the page boasted only 87 likes. But Mathewson got a wide response with his Tuesday post asking for “patriots willing to take up arms and defend (Kenosha) from the evil thugs.”

Within about four hours, some 1,000 people responded they were “going” to the Kenosha event. Another 4,000 said they were “interested.”

Later in the day, Mathewson, an assault-style rifle visibly strapped around his chest, posted a 15-second clip of civilians gathered near the courthouse. That night, police say a civilian with an assault-style weapon shot and killed two men and wounded another as armed vigilantes patrolled the streets during yet another violent night of protests following the police shooting of Jacob Blake.

There’s no evidence that a 17-year-old suspect taken into custody was led to Kenosha by the Facebook post. Mathewson said he does not know the suspect, Kyle Rittenhouse of Antioch, and knows of no communication with his group.

But city and law enforcement officials have blamed the armed vigilantes who showed up Tuesday night for worsening tensions and sparking unnecessary confrontations. Mathewson says he was only trying to protect his city.

“In my view, when the government can’t protect us, that’s when we rely on the Second Amendment, which is in place just for these circumstances,” he said Thursday. “Our city was under siege, we were under attack and the government could not ensure our safety.”

That’s not how Facebook sees it. The social media giant has taken down the Kenosha Guard’s page for violating its “dangerous organizations policy.” Rittenhouse, who is facing murder charges in connection with the Tuesday night shootings, had his Facebook and Instagram accounts taken down and the company will temporarily prohibit anyone from starting a new account in his name.

Brian Fishman, who oversees Facebook’s dangerous organizations department, also posted a thread to Twitter about the situation, saying: “None of the shooter’s accounts were reported by users prior to the shooting.”

Mathewson’s personal account was also removed without notice and he was effectively banned from Facebook for life in connection with the policy, which prohibits organizations or individuals that declare a violent mission or are engaged in violence.

“He will not have been warned and (we) will not allow people who are banned under our dangerous orgs policy to have a profile,” a spokeswoman for Facebook said in an email.

Facebook also looked into any obvious links between Mathewson’s post and the arrival of Rittenhouse in Kenosha.

“At this time, we have not found evidence on Facebook that suggests the (suspect) followed the Kenosha Guard page or that he was invited on the Event Page they organized,” the Facebook spokeswoman said. “However, the Kenosha Guard Page and their Event Page violated our new policy addressing militia organizations and have been removed on that basis.”

The policy was announced Aug. 19 and comes after a summer of vigilante clashes during protests following Floyd’s killing at the end of May.

“We’ve had too many tragedies like those in Kenosha. Companies like Facebook owe it to everyone to closely examine the influence of online content on such violence--and to take action to stop it,” Fishman wrote.

Militia-style groups patrolled the streets of Minneapolis in the weeks after Floyd died. In Albuquerque, a person was shot and seriously wounded in June during a clash between protesters and a group called the New Mexico Civil Guard.

After the shootings in Kenosha, hundreds of people made clear they would like to see Mathewson face a much harsher punishment than losing his Facebook page. A petition circulating online demanding that Mathewson be charged as an accessory to murder had 1,650 signatures as of 7:30 p.m. Thursday.

Mathewson, a private investigator, said he has also been the target of death threats.

In an interview Thursday, Mathewson said he wouldn’t go so far as saying he regretted that so many people came from outside his community to guard it, saying it wasn’t his intention for the response to grow so large.

He said the posting was written up by the alt-right website Infowars run by Alex Jones, known for his conspiracy theories. Mathewson, in turn, said he promoted the Infowars article on the Kenosha Guard page, as a way to note the “event” was getting national media attention.

Soon, he started getting hundreds of messages of support from all over the world, as far away as Australia and New Zealand.

On Thursday, Mathewson said promoting the Infowars article was a mistake. “It certainly wasn’t my intention to attract people from outside the community, let alone the state,” he said.

He also acknowledged that the Infowars site is “not very credible.”

Mathewson said he made the post an “event” on Facebook but he hadn’t planned logistics for something so large. He said he didn’t have walkie-talkies or issue assignments or coordinate the turnout, other than suggesting people “go to the courthouse.”

Before returning to his neighborhood, where he spent much of the night posted at a subdivision entrance with a small group, Mathewson himself was there, standing with other openly armed men in a park as curfew neared. At the time, Mathewson told a reporter he was there to “lend support to the good guys.”

Kenosha Police Chief Dan Miskinis appeared to agree, saying Mathewson and the others were out to protect property and “exercise their constitutional right.”

Kenosha Mayor John Antaramian disagreed, saying such groups only make the situation worse. “No, I don’t need more guns on the street in the community,” he said at a news conference the day after the shootings.

But Mathewson responded that the mayor had failed to protect the city. “If I was an officer getting Molotov cocktails and rocks thrown at me, I would be scared out of my mind,” he said. “For them to say, ’We can handle it,’ is disingenuous and reckless. It’s putting politics ahead of safety and common sense, in my opinion.

“Here in Kenosha, I can smell burning rubber and I can see the building in front of me, the probation and parole building in a big pile of ash and debris,” he continued. “We’re at war, we’re being invaded.”

There were months and months of militias parading their weapons online and gathering to participate in street fights, months of nightly news reports of right-wing, Second Amendment fans facing off against BLM protesters, reports of huge increases in gun sales, and there are still people here who are arguing that Rittenhouse wasn't inspired by any of that Good Guy/Bad Guy ideology? Or people who are arguing that the media promoted that ideology?

The shaven headed, bull-necked, tattooed, heavily armed men fighting BLM protestors on America's streets firmly believe they are the Good Guys. All they know of American history is that it is one long saga of Good vs Bad, Them vs Us. This translates into White vs Black, Donald Trump vs Hillary Clinton, drinker of babies' blood.

CheeseMmmm · 22/11/2021 04:56

Just catching up s bit.

See conversation has moved on!

In summary from what I've read-

UK main media outlets have been biased in things to do with this trial, not factual.

It's unfair to use the term anti vaxx as a term because often it's this particular vaccine (s) for covid they are against and have had other vaccines.

The UK media reporting on Rittenhouse trial could well be trying to divert attention from Maxwell trial. Presumably because been told to by royal family/ other celebs.

Maxwell brother was interviewed said she shouldn't do that and piece expressing a more sympathetic view. That is suspicious /concerning. Assume posters concerns are UK media essentially propaganda.

Interesting.

The idea that anyone with an interest in world news will have been following this on USA news sites and getting the detail. Rather than... Watching Al Jazeera, looking into more detail about other things around the world. Is strange. The firm belief the options are- not be interested in current affairs at all OR look into this in depth (and so presumably all other situations in the same depth globally)... That doesn't make sense. It just doesn't. And I can't believe for a minute that posters who say they do that actually have the same approach to all the things going on all over the world. To get the detail context understanding of laws etc on all of it. That's an awful lot of time and info. Those who do. That's very very impressive! Almost unbelievable.

CheeseMmmm · 22/11/2021 05:05

Hello math! This thread is very strange. Very strange indeed.

Just FYI! Good luck :/

FOJN · 22/11/2021 05:34

I also suggest that there was one charge that Kyle Rittenhouse was definitely guilty of, and his defense as much as admitted that.

Did you watch the trial? The judges instructions to the jury would have helped you understand how they reached a verdict of not guilty on the reckless endangerment charge. There are plenty of people on line posting links to Wisconsin state law so it's readily available for you to check.

3ormorecharacters · 22/11/2021 05:56

I can't believe that there are so many people here who think he was in the right and this is a media problem. The fact that it was a clear case of self defence overlooks the context. He brought a loaded gun to a dangerous situation, and the authorities have their tacit approval to him using it as an informal militia. Would they really have done the same for an 'antifa' protester? Would Trump et al really be celebrating this as a victory for American gun laws if the tables were turned? It's just another example of the collusion between swathes of the American media, justice system, bygun lobby and right wing and it stinks.

merrymouse · 22/11/2021 06:14

The fact that it was a clear case of self defence overlooks the context. He brought a loaded gun to a dangerous situation, and the authorities have their tacit approval to him using it as an informal militia.

I think the point was that Wisconsin law enables a claim of self defence that ignores wider context.

This is the way the system is designed. The laws that gave a 17 year old access to an AK-15 and then a judgement of not guilty when he killed people are intentional.

Swipe left for the next trending thread