Curious about (lack of) mat leave in USA. How do women cope?

[Ed1n]

Reading another thread about WFH with a newborn which got me thinking. I’m on mat leave and cannot imagine returning to work at twelve weeks, which is I understand, fairly typical (even best case) in US. Any stateside mumsnetters able to give insight into how long most women really take, what is childcare provision like etc?

It seems such a different set up! How do you breast feed, cope with sleep deprivation and decision making.

Googling suggests Estonia is the generous country for paid mat leave. USA the worst.

[quote Megalameg]@HanukahMatata

I literally just gave you two studies (since they’re so very important to you) which prove exactly what I’m saying and you misrepresent and gaslight what they actually say because you don’t want to hear it. I then point out that the studies you have posted don’t say what you claim they do - and spell out why for you.

And of course the study you posted is biased - it’s literally by a high powered businesswoman who became a Harvard professor and advocates for women in business and child care for them. And they’re interested in the truth about daycare? That’s what you call a conflict of interest.

There is a zero percent chance of someone like that finding anything other than what confirms there position and that’s a scientific fact sweetie.[/quote]
OMG, I just realised how insane this post is.
So a woman researcher at Harvard Business School must be a BUSINESSWOMAN (aka devil incarnate) and thus MUST be biased. And thus there must be a conflict of interest.
Of course, it were a male researcher, well, that would be fine. Because they aren't biased.

So I looked at the profile of the lead researcher. You'll be pleased to know that she is NOT an evil businesswoman. She may not even be a mother. WHo knows?

Before she became an academic, Professor McGinn was a director of labor relations in the public sector. So an ex-civil servant(ess?) and then an academic, perhaps not as dreadful as a businesswoman.

this is her. Pretty well qualified I would say.
www.hbs.edu/faculty/Pages/profile.aspx?facId=6569&view=publications

Hiding this post now because as much fun as it has been to prove someone so wrong, this little trip back to the 1950s has taken up too much time and I do (shock, horror) have a day job

@HanukahMatata I admire your work, but don’t wear yourself out!
for Meg who can’t link to studies that say the opposite of what she says they say, which curiously aligns with what is the truth because she believes it.
Evidence is very clear that funded childcare is a significant benefit to disadvantaged children. Do you not want your husbands tax to go towards that? Should poor people not have children? I’m trying to work out how far you take this me-centric philosophy. Please remember in your answer that my children’s childcare is not subsidised, subsidies here are income tested, so this isn’t benefiting my child. (I’m very happy to pay my taxes and have that benefit others children)

@HanukahMatata

And still - no defence of that “happiest kids ever are in subsidised childcare” take of yourself from the study you linked? Surprise, surprise.

With every post you reveal your bias. Seriously, how can you possibly hope to honestly “research” these topics with an open mind when your so emotionally emotionally invested in subsidised daycare being a good thing for kids to be stuck in day after day so You, I mean parents, can do whatever they want.

Like I said, it’s a clear conflict of interest. You are emotionally triggered by the suggestion that long maternity leave shouldn’t be taxpayer funded and kids are better off not in daycare, yet you say you can research these things with an open mind? Laughable. L.O.L!

Well I guess it’s good to know how unbiased (not) many researchers studying their pet topic are. Your comments have provided me with a shining example of that and I’ll know to take any such studies with a huge grain of salt in future, if you are any indication sweetie.

@Lemonsyellow

Were will all those people be if they’re on maternity leave for years and being payed for it? Not doing any of those jobs that’s for sure, someone else will be. Literally all of those jobs have existed long before funded daycare and maternity leave was ever even an idea - don’t act like they wouldn’t exist without them, they 100% would - we just wouldn’t be paying people not to do their jobs or paying for them not to see their children.

I shall just leave this here again ....

Megalameg well, to follow your argument logically, we could equally well say you chose the lifestyle you wanted because you didn't want to work/ had a crap job pre-kids so staying home was a more attractive option/ couldn't afford quality childcare/ believe you need to stay home to facilitate your dh having a job .... or indeed any other reason we want to invent!

You seem terribly angry at those of us who raise happy, healthy, well adjusted children while also managing to work

Were will all those people be if they’re on maternity leave for years and being payed for it?

Err @Megalameg I have never heard of anyone being on maternity leave for years! In NHS (which is run by highly skilled working mothers!) then max anyone can take is 52 weeks and at the end of that time thryvget the highly skilled and qualified member of staff back to work to look after other peoples family members who are sick.
Before the increase to 52 weeks many women in healthcare were leaving because they did not want to return with a very young baby. They were then unable to keep up their registration and as a result many never returned to work.
The country cannot afford to train highly skilled health professionals who then only work for a few years.
Not only does it not make economic sense but who will look after sick and elderly people. Because this work force is predominantly women.

@wooliewoo

If they have multiple children I meant - not years for one child.

Ok but the birth rate here in uk is less than 2 per woman.
So an average healthcare professional will have a max between 1 & 2 years maternity leave ( if they take max time off)
And if they are incentivised to return they will retain their registration and up to date skills and work for 40+ years looking after other peoples sick and elderly relatives.

@NichyNoo

I gave birth in Belgium where mat leave is 15 weeks. It’s just normal. Babies go to crèche and cope just fine. I personally couldn’t take a full year off like people do in the UK. I’d be too bored.

You don't get a chance to be bored!

I'm not sure a long maternity leave is a good idea policy-wise really.
For the individual (myself included) it's great to be able to schlep around for a year and be paid to do nothing, but stepping back, it really is too much to expect your company and the state to fund really.
I'm not sure it's that good for the mum and baby either, if going back to work is going to happen anyway.
I'm not sure all of the fussy baby-led matrydom so evident on MN does anyone any good, and that comes from having lots of time on your hands and no real deadline to take control of things.
Only time will tell if the generation of babies raised now will benefit from the attention heaped upon them in their first year and the lack of structure so beloved on here.

@Katyppp

I'm not sure a long maternity leave is a good idea policy-wise really. For the individual (myself included) it's great to be able to schlep around for a year and be paid to do nothing, but stepping back, it really is too much to expect your company and the state to fund really. I'm not sure it's that good for the mum and baby either, if going back to work is going to happen anyway. I'm not sure all of the fussy baby-led matrydom so evident on MN does anyone any good, and that comes from having lots of time on your hands and no real deadline to take control of things. Only time will tell if the generation of babies raised now will benefit from the attention heaped upon them in their first year and the lack of structure so beloved on here.

This is such an odd stance to have, you’ll go back at some point might as well make it immediate?

Why does maternity leave = lack of structure for a one year old. Also I’m a big fan of a routine for a child but realistically how much rigid structure do they need?

I took a full year, can say without a shadow of doubt I did not in fact have lots of time on my hands. I do to a certain extent understand the boredom argument, particularly if you had a lockdown mat leave, but it’s not boredom in the sense of sitting down and twiddling thumbs, it’s more if you miss the mental stimulation and arguably social stimulation of working.
It’s is absolutely not too much to expect your company to subsidise your mat leave as it is not too much to expect them to subsidise your retirement. People are an asset to companies and the companies best resource, not a commodity.

My DC are 4 and 2. My employer give 10weeks full pay, 2weeks 70% pay then its statutory maternity pay until 34weeks then the final 3months is unpaid. My first DC I returned at 7months as could not afford to take any more..(I was not ready to return) with dc2 I took the full year and it was much better, I actually felt ready at that point to return. I'm currently pregnant with dc3 and plan on taking the full year. My employer has just this year increased its 100% paid maternity to 16weeks and 4weeks at 70% then statutory maternity pay to take us up to 34weeks with the final 3 months still unpaid. Luckily Dh is now in a well paid job that I'm able to take the year off. Physically I was fine after a few weeks but mentally I would not be able to go back to work after 12/16weeks. I hated leaving them even at 7months and a year.

I dont care about the companies at all.
But lots of women mental health and confidence does seem to go down during a years maternity leave. I don't think this was such a common issue when maternity leave was less. Being isolated at home (and I know not all mothers are, but many are) with young kids, really is not good for your mental health.

I'm originally from the USA. It really is pretty awful in the US for maternity leave. My last job before moving overseas was in an office where we had no maternity leave, you could save up your holiday time but our holiday time was nearly non-existent (none for the first year, one week the next year, after 5 years you could take two weeks but not all at once) and maybe take some unpaid leave but that would mess up your eligibility for health insurance because it was based on working full time and the owner would check the hours monthly.

Something a few people in the thread here need to consider also is that most experiences being shared here are regarding office jobs. Imagine how shit it is for women working in any unskilled jobs, restaurants, shops etc. Some big chains have been shamed into offering a marginal amount of leave but it really is very little in the end. Many more women there opt to be SAHM as well.

And obligatory comment: my mum worked for a bank in the late 70s (when I was born) and she had a week off work when she had me. All sick leave, not classed as maternity because it was non-existent.

@julieca I definitely don’t think reducing mat leave is the answer though. I think maternal wellbeing is incredibly important and the decline in women’s mental health post partum probably has more to do with the lack of support there is for mothers on a societal level. In the Uk we have a HV service that in many instances causes a lot of distress to new parents, HCPs uneducated in infant feeding and breastfeeding, a society the looks down on breastfeeding and still very much expects children to be seen and not heard, not exactly stellar mat pay after 6 weeks and then still a larger societal issue that childcare and household maintenance fall exclusively on the women’s shoulders and that’s not even touching on the cost of childcare. Talk about a recipe for disaster mental health wise All of these things would still exist with a shorter maternity leave.

@AlphabetAerobics I am also in the Netherlands. You’re legally obliged to take 4 weeks of the 16 prior to the birth, which stumped me as I felt very well and easily could have worked for 1-2 weeks more before the birth. Most Dutch women then go back to work PT at the 12-week mark after the baby is born. I didn’t want to do that though; I always knew I wanted to return FT. So I did what I suspect lots of other EU countries also allow: I took all my parental leave in one block (as opposed to spreading it out by returning PT) and tacked it onto my maternity leave. This, with accrued holiday, meant I went off at the end of September, had my son at the beginning of November, and didn’t return to work until mid-May. It was the perfect amount of time for me. I wouldn’t have wanted a whole year off.

@Sarbears28, you say you struggled to leave your babies when they were a year old. But you did, because that's te maximum time you could take off.
If the maximum time was 5 years, posters would say they struggled to leave them at that point.
Likewise, if 12 weeks is all you have, you just get on with it.

@Sleeplessem I am not advocating for shorter maternity leave. I think more organised activities for mums and babies would have more positive impact. Most adults need contact with other adults.

We have a lot of international staff where I work. I have been surprised at times to learn that the young woman working long hours has a six-month-old baby that her DP is looking after.
But all of them seem to breastfeed and pump. We have a room for this.
It changed my previous idea that length of maternity leave makes a difference to rates of breastfeeding.

[quote Katyppp]@Sarbears28, you say you struggled to leave your babies when they were a year old. But you did, because that's te maximum time you could take off.
If the maximum time was 5 years, posters would say they struggled to leave them at that point.
Likewise, if 12 weeks is all you have, you just get on with it.[/quote]
No, I would not have left them at 12 weeks, i would have resigned. At 7months when I went back with dc1, I cried daily for months at having to leave my baby and nearly put my notice in numerous times. The only reason I didnt was because everyone around me was saying I was being stupid and overly sensitive, baby was fine, I should be too (if I went back in time, I wouldn't have listened to them and my notice would have been in). With my second I didnt like leaving them, yes, but I felt ready to leave my babies and going back to work after the year was easier and I was happier as my dc2 was 13months old (used holidays to add to leave). With the baby I'm currently carrying I'm doing the same as I did with dc2. Only taking 7months with my first DC was so hard for me, i was nowhere ready to return to work.

I had 16 weeks full pay - 6 weeks half pay and the rest was up to39 weeks at stat mat pay. With paid time off (Annual leave) I took 40 weeks off.

[quote julieca]@Sleeplessem I am not advocating for shorter maternity leave. I think more organised activities for mums and babies would have more positive impact. Most adults need contact with other adults.[/quote]
You’re spot on there. I actually think for such a developed country we have an incredibly backwards attitude towards all things maternity related

When I had my babies early 90's in UK mat leave was either 3 or 6 and no longer.

I know women i the Uk who went back after 12 weeks. They're the breadwinners so couldn't afford the time off