Curious about (lack of) mat leave in USA. How do women cope?

[Ed1n]

Reading another thread about WFH with a newborn which got me thinking. I’m on mat leave and cannot imagine returning to work at twelve weeks, which is I understand, fairly typical (even best case) in US. Any stateside mumsnetters able to give insight into how long most women really take, what is childcare provision like etc?

It seems such a different set up! How do you breast feed, cope with sleep deprivation and decision making.

Googling suggests Estonia is the generous country for paid mat leave. USA the worst.

[quote Megalameg]@HoppingPavlova

I absolutely have no problem with what you’ve done, or with one parent working and the other staying home exclusively (or mostly). What you’ve done is great.

The point is that I believe it’s wrong to have tax payer funded daycare for basically everyone other than those single mothers where the fathers run out and they’re only choice is work (although in that case I think some kind of benefits in addition would be healthier so they didn’t have to work all the time and could raise their children and since it’s costing either way why not do that?) and to have long long maternity leave payed for by the tax payer on the basis that it’s “better for the economy” (which I don’t believe for a second, it’s absurd).

On a very basic level, I don’t believe children in daycares day in day out is actually good for them, actually I think it’s very wrong - so why should my family pay for something I fundamentally find wrong for women who can either afford it themselves if they cut down on other things, or provide it themselves by working less (or have their DH provide it)? I don’t agree with the blasé attitude some of those posting take to family itself and I truly believe the more time children spend with family the better for them.

But other people can think different and can live how they want - just don’t expect someone else to pay for it - that’s all.[/quote]
You might not "believe" that having children in daycare is good for them. But thankfully your belief system is not what counts.

Again you have ZERO evidence to back up your claims which are based on your feelings and not on empirical facts.

Actually all the evidence supports good quality daycare having excellent outcomes for children.

I hope your kids are homeschooled and you're not imposing their education on the taxpayers. I feel the children of stay at home mums who are not paying tax should not get free education personally (of course I don't actually but it's as ridiculous an argument and the same logic).

[quote Megalameg]@timeisnotaline

I am happy. Actually it’s not that he’ll leave you - the statistics show your actually more likely to leave him as a stay at home dad. That’s the hard truth.[/quote]
That doesn't bode well for you does it?

By the way @Megalameg , you know nothing about my personal choices. I never said if I used daycare or not. Or how many kids I have. Or my own workign arrangements. It's irrelevant as I'm basing my answers solely on scientific research adn evidence.

I happen to have studied this subject and know quite a bit about it, having worked on two very large studies on child outcomes. So I know you're talking total twaddle and have zero evidence to back up your claims. But you're not interested in evidence. I could provide endless studies showing how wrong you are but you would just dismiss them because you are so sure you're right since you believe it to be so.

Nothing more than cogs in a machine - that’s a pointless life to me.
I bet your husband feels the same. Better pray that cog hangs around to pay your bills.

Most US women use daycare (aka nursery) and not all get 12 weeks either - if you work in a professional job then you may well do - but for many jobs it's 4-6 weeks and then you're expected to be back FT.

I left the workforce because of it. When I hit the 12 week point I simply couldn't have imagined going back, but most women do, because they have to. I was very fortunate to have the option to stay at home.

Why should my family pay for that? Make better choices, don’t try to force other people to pay for your selfishness.

Your husband's money, remember? You don't contribute. You're not a tax payer and yet here you are ranting about where taxes should and shouldn't be spent.

Get a job, pay some taxes, then you can talk.

@NichyNoo

I gave birth in Belgium where mat leave is 15 weeks. It’s just normal. Babies go to crèche and cope just fine. I personally couldn’t take a full year off like people do in the UK. I’d be too bored.

I'm Belgian and took 6months off, standard mat leave and then some parental leave. But the last 3 weeks I was just longing to go back to work!

Crèche in Belgium is very affordable. Our boy was there 4 days a week and we paid +- 500eur a month. It's income based for most of them and even the fully private ones don't charge the crazy prices I read on this forum.

That’s what this is - Disney Mums. Career first, children distant second when it’s convenient

Gosh Meg you really hate women dont you.

@choli

Yes it does actually. Because as a SAHM Mum I’m actually statistically less likely to be divorced by my spouse than any other spouse (man or woman).
The numbers don’t lie and they prove your comment wrong.

Megaleg’s posts are completely bizarre to me. You can’t just live in a selfish little bubble, you, your DH, your DC. Every one of us does live in a bigger society. Even if you are so selfish as to not wish to support childcare options or maternity leave that may benefit other people, you don’t seem to realise that will damage your own selfish interests. Where will the other people whose jobs may actually benefit you come from if a whole swathe of people are cut off from basic taxpayer funding - and their children? Not just your cleaner or gardener. The teacher who teaches your children. The surgeon who treats your cancer. The pilot who flies the plane for your holiday. The lawyer who fights your corner in your divorce. Etc.

@HanukahMatata

Again I don’t know how to link - if you google the professors name and the general topic you can easily find it - if you choose not to do this that’s because you want to ignore it.

The reality is I do know about you from your answers and how upset you are about this.
I’m sure you cherry pick this and that study which you believe proves your wants to be what’s best - however based on the two studies you linked so far which you totally misrepresented or wishfully misinterpreted the results of (and anyone can read them and easily see they don’t prove what you claim) and the way you choose to ignore the one study I told you about - it’s clear you will ignore evidence which goes against what you’ve said and misrepresent the outcomes of studies in order to prove yourself right.

Emotionally you have something at stake here and are very biased. Your either a woman who has done exactly what has been said in regards to maternity leave and childcare or your a childless woman with a bias. First you make up your mind based on what you want to be true then find (or make since you actually do studies) “truth”.

Link to your own study since you seem to think that counts for something.

@Megalameg
You don;t need to link. Tell me which one and I'll link for you. Don't worry about that.
I already linked to HER list of publications which don't back up what you say.
Just tell me which one and I'll link to it. (you're welcome)

@Megalameg
Here's the link again to the Harvard studies of Professor Killewald
scholar.harvard.edu/akillewald/publications

Which publication backs you up since you said that she has done research on this? Just give me the title and I'll link it for you.

@Megalameg
But I did find another Harvard study on this topic (more scientific evidence)
hbswk.hbs.edu/item/kids-of-working-moms-grow-into-happy-adults

The study is called Money, Work and Marital stability: Assessing Change in the gendered determinate of divorce.
Here is another one from the American Journal of Sociology: He left, she left - google those terms since your the expert on linking studies.
But I post a study you link a study, big deal. None of this conclusively proves anything whatsoever, studies often conflict and are biased in in execution (be careful of that).

Btw - you do realise that merely linking a study proves nothing if that study doesn’t actually show what you say it does - for example the study which you claimed proved a correlation between child happiness and prosperity and high rates of subsidised childcare, which when I read it actually did no such thing but only listed wealthier countries which were in a position to offer subsidised childcare, but in no way was the subsidised childcare actually shown or claimed to be the reason for the countries prosperity in the study. Plus what you said was “happiness” was actually merely a better overall child safety and basic needs being met - which again was provided by wealthier stable countries, but once again, had absolutely nothing to do with subsidised childcare.

It’s like you read some headline about the study that said “happiest countries have free childcare” then took that at face value without actually reading the study (or if you did without understanding it). But since your a totally unbiased researcher I’m sure you’d never do anything like that.

@HanukahMatata

Oh gee a study by a professor in business who advocates for high powered business wome - couldn’t possibly be any bias there. And there is actually no “scientific” evidence, your obviously confused as to what scientific evidence is.

I thought that might be the one you were referring to. BEcause it doesn't say ANYTHING about stay at home dads divorcing more.

The author explicitly states that she is looking at divorce due to husbands (not dads) not working which is usually due to involuntary unemployment. She EXPLICITLY states you can't reach conclusions on stay at home dads.

But, hey, don't let that stop you!

Here;s the article.
journals.sagepub.com/eprint/DQzHJAJMUYWQevh577wr/full

And here's what the author says:
" Involuntary nonemployment may negatively affect marriages more strongly than voluntary nonemployment, by affecting outcomes like partners’ mental health. It is not possible to evaluate this perspective with the current data, because voluntary specialization by men in unpaid labor is rare: in 2012, only about one-fifth of stay-at-home fathers were home primarily to care for the family (Livingston 2014)"

Here's the scientific article that the summary I posted was based on.
If you'd have actually read, rather than just throwing out spurious claims of bias because one of the researchers was at Harvard Business School, you would have seen that.

Here's the scientific artcile. You're welcome.

journals.sagepub.com/eprint/DQzHJAJMUYWQevh577wr/full

And you still have provided zero scientific evidence backing up your claims.

@HanukahMatata

I literally just gave you two studies (since they’re so very important to you) which prove exactly what I’m saying and you misrepresent and gaslight what they actually say because you don’t want to hear it. I then point out that the studies you have posted don’t say what you claim they do - and spell out why for you.

And of course the study you posted is biased - it’s literally by a high powered businesswoman who became a Harvard professor and advocates for women in business and child care for them. And they’re interested in the truth about daycare? That’s what you call a conflict of interest.

There is a zero percent chance of someone like that finding anything other than what confirms there position and that’s a scientific fact sweetie.

@BernadetteRostankowskiWolowitz

That’s what this is - Disney Mums. Career first, children distant second when it’s convenient

Gosh Meg you really hate women dont you.

I know right?! That was a proper WTAF statement.

@Twizbe

That was sarcastic and made in response to someone who was shitting on my personal choice to say home. You’ve taken it totally out of context and without regard for the rest of the comment, the point of which was that I don’t think it’s good for children to be in daycare all day every working day - and I stand by that.

[quote Megalameg]@Twizbe

That was sarcastic and made in response to someone who was shitting on my personal choice to say home. You’ve taken it totally out of context and without regard for the rest of the comment, the point of which was that I don’t think it’s good for children to be in daycare all day every working day - and I stand by that.[/quote]
I read the full comment thanks and the ones before.

I've said before you're giving SAHPs a really bad name

[quote Megalameg]@HanukahMatata

I literally just gave you two studies (since they’re so very important to you) which prove exactly what I’m saying and you misrepresent and gaslight what they actually say because you don’t want to hear it. I then point out that the studies you have posted don’t say what you claim they do - and spell out why for you.

And of course the study you posted is biased - it’s literally by a high powered businesswoman who became a Harvard professor and advocates for women in business and child care for them. And they’re interested in the truth about daycare? That’s what you call a conflict of interest.

There is a zero percent chance of someone like that finding anything other than what confirms there position and that’s a scientific fact sweetie.[/quote]
@Megalameg
This is quite embarassing for you.

The author of the first study literally said that you can't say what you're trying to say . I mean, the author's own words say that's the wrong conclusion.

And here's the abstract from the American Journal of Sociology paper that you mentioned (I know one of the authors actually). Which says that non working women are more likely to stay in shit marriages (But says nothing about stay at home dads). Exactly what I was saying before. This is actually quite hilarious , your 'evidence' is research showing the exact of what you claim. I mean, how can I take you seriously??

Here's the link since you find them challenging
www.jstor.org/stable/10.1086/658173?refreqid=excelsior%3A8738abbe90c168b766876664862d884a

Just to be clear, husbands not working, usually involuntariy, is not the same as men choosing to be stay at home dads. The authors explicitly make that point. I mean, it's blatantly obvious but I guess they foresaw threads like this.

[quote Megalameg]@timeisnotaline

I am happy. Actually it’s not that he’ll leave you - the statistics show your actually more likely to leave him as a stay at home dad. That’s the hard truth.[/quote]
Umm. I said he was taking paternity leave. 3-4 months of it. That’s not being a sahm dad. He will return to his full time job after that, just like I will after maternity leave. But if he wanted to stay home and run the house I’d seriously consider it!

Are you actually reading posts or just guessing?