Why is no-one mentioning violent pornography and Wayne Couzans?

[deadleaves]

I've been listening to the 'how did this happen' coverage and no-one is offering up as part of the explanation that he was a big fan of 'brutal pornography.'

If men wank off to women being brutalised that is inevitably going to lead to some of those men going to act out the violent fantasies which porn has now hardwired into their neural pathways as arousing.

If blatantly violent racist films were mainstream no-one would be surprised that racism increased, and I am sure all commentators would feel comfortable making this point.

But when sexualised violence against women in mainstream why are we pretending this isn't one of the contributory factors to brutal crimes like this?

And worried about my Pre-teen son who’s mates have already told him about Porn. Normalising this shit is just so wrong. As people have said, desensitisation leads to harder and more extreme porn watching and there really should be restrictions on this.

Testosterone is a dangerous thing in many men, pity we can’t just eradicate that particular hormone! Chance would be a fine thing, a penis is used as a weapon with these men.

@IWentAwayIStayedAway

Im waiting to hear what else he has done. His poor wife will have suffered at his hands as well

She said he was a normal loving husband!

There is a huge gulf between viewing something and bribing those actions into the real world. This is similar to the old videogame violence argument. Someone who would have no issue shooting someone in real life, is not going to be perturbed from doing it in a game but the reverse doesn't apply in most cases. "Hardwiring neural pathways" is not a thing. People do not go to a porn website, randomly click a video and then become incapable of being aroused by anything other than the contents of that first video. They go with what appeals to them in the moment.

By banning "violent pornography" you sort of miss the point. Men who murder in this fashion are not new, but the porn exists because there is a demand for watching women being abused, which does seem to be relatively new.

I think that demand has more negative implications for society than this case (which is a horrible but thankfully relatively uncommon event) and will exist with or without a porn ban. That's the issue to tackle.

You can't really ban anything from the internet unless you get every country to simultaneously agree. Geographic borders do not currently exist there, in any real sense.

Completely agree, OP

It always puzzles me that people who would be outraged by freely available videos of Nazis torturing Jews, or Klansmen lynching black African Americans, are perfectly accepting of the strangling, punching, anally raping and urinating on women that comprises internet porn.
When I was young, teenagers would have no idea such material existed, let alone how to access it via specialist shops “under the counter”.
Young men took pride in being “good in bed” - ie knowing how to give their partner an orgasm, not abusing her.
Looking back, I think I lived through a golden age of feminism, where we had acquired equal pay, contraception and abortion rights, and had a generation of young men who were gentle hippies rather than aggressive and violent macho abusers.

I think we need a feminist campaign to get society and individuals to recognise women as fully human and equal beings.

I actually think its that basic.

Breadpita- u can certainly make more of an effort if society is willing to fund it. True - you won’t get violent porn eradicated totally, but if you treated it like terrorism videos or child pornography, then you would be reducing it.

@BreadPita

There is a huge gulf between viewing something and bribing those actions into the real world. This is similar to the old videogame violence argument. Someone who would have no issue shooting someone in real life, is not going to be perturbed from doing it in a game but the reverse doesn't apply in most cases. "Hardwiring neural pathways" is not a thing. People do not go to a porn website, randomly click a video and then become incapable of being aroused by anything other than the contents of that first video. They go with what appeals to them in the moment.

By banning "violent pornography" you sort of miss the point. Men who murder in this fashion are not new, but the porn exists because there is a demand for watching women being abused, which does seem to be relatively new.

I think that demand has more negative implications for society than this case (which is a horrible but thankfully relatively uncommon event) and will exist with or without a porn ban. That's the issue to tackle.

You can't really ban anything from the internet unless you get every country to simultaneously agree. Geographic borders do not currently exist there, in any real sense.

So much in here!

Firstly the, people only click on what they like in the first place. Well actually, young boys who have no sexual experience don't actually know what they like. They are having their tastes shaped by porn hub et al.
Secondly, these sites don't just reflect tastes and demand they shape them. Just like supermarkets aim to get you to buy things you had not considered, so do porn sites. They offer you stuff you may not have considered. they seek to expand your tastes to get you to buy more stuff. This is how retailers operate.

but the porn exists because there is a demand for watching women being abused, which does seem to be relatively new
Where on earth do you think this demand has come from? This argument that porn sites are only reflecting, not creating, demand is so obviously bogus! We all know from our experience of shopping that this is bogus! There are lots of factors that feed into male violence to women but pornography is clearly one of them. its not just feeding off violence to women but feeding INTO into it as well.

When I was a young teen boys just wanted to put their hands up your top, now they expect anal at 14! that’s the access to the internet.

Firstly the, people only click on what they like in the first place. Well actually, young boys who have no sexual experience don't actually know what they like. They are having their tastes shaped by porn hub et al.

You don't need to have sexual experience to have a sexual preference. In my day, I would actively seek out animé porn, because I watched animé and found the characters attractive. A lot of guys start with "big boobs" or what-not.

They offer you stuff you may not have considered. they seek to expand your tastes to get you to buy more stuff

Yes, things that you had not considered but that you WANT. If your algorithm recommended homosexual man-on-man porn to heterosexual men, your site would probably not be very successful. If humans were than manipulable, these problems would be easily eradicated. You'd just make all porn consensual sex in the missionary position between married couples.

Where on earth do you think this demand has come from?
I think it's a reflection of the current social climate existing between the sexes. This isn't exclusive to porn, it's all over the internet.
There's a popular youtube channel at the moment called "Fresh&Fit". As far as I can tell, the point seems to be for the hosts to pay Instagram influencers to come onto their show and mildly verbally abuse them.
A lot of men love watching it and lots of other channels like it.

@Regularsizedrudy

Because the vast majority of men watch porn and pointing out this link would mean they have to do a millisecond of introspection and that might make the poor menz feel bad and GASP have to change their behaviour

Absolutely agree with this.

You don't need to have sexual experience to have a sexual preference. In my day, I would actively seek out animé porn, because I watched animé and found the characters attractive. A lot of guys start with "big boobs" or what-not

I find this denial that porn is shaping the sexual desires of children really naive. Why do you think that boys now think girls like anal, being slapped, being choked, being spat on, having their hair pulled? All common experiences from the accounts of young women? Do you think it is a genetic mutation that has affected this generation and its just a coincidence that it coincides with what they see on porn?

People's tastes are easy to manipulate. Pretty much the whole of capitalism relies on this! They are not just helping us to discover what we like. They shape what we want. The entire fashion industry relies on this. The whole of advertising and marketing relies on this.
Pretty much all of retail relies on this.

I think it's far too simplistic to say that men have always raped and killed women so it can't be because of violent porn on the internet

There have been so many improvements in society over the last century that violence against women should be considerably lower than it is. Policing is more robust, CCTV, spousal rape is now illegal, there is more support for women (not enough but more than historically), better social norms around consent, more sex education, etc etc etc

And yet there is still a horrific amount of violence against women, suggesting that other factors are counteracting all these improvements. There is plenty of research establishing links between violent porn consumption and abuse/violence toward women, this is not a tenuous link.

I think if sex offenders were to be jailed for life after the first offence then this wouldn’t keep happening but obviously that’s never going to happen, the jails would be bursting at the seams as there are so many male sex offenders.

The type of porn that is available now as opposed to when I was a teenager is chalk and cheese. When I was experiencing sex with my girlfriends, it was at a pace that was natural. And that's the difference now, choking, slapping, anal and other degrading acts are expected by some teens and young men and young women's boundaries are not thought of. I do genuinely despair of the shit young women have put up with.

@Babdoc

It always puzzles me that people who would be outraged by freely available videos of Nazis torturing Jews, or Klansmen lynching black African Americans, are perfectly accepting of the strangling, punching, anally raping and urinating on women that comprises internet porn. When I was young, teenagers would have no idea such material existed, let alone how to access it via specialist shops “under the counter”. Young men took pride in being “good in bed” - ie knowing how to give their partner an orgasm, not abusing her. Looking back, I think I lived through a golden age of feminism, where we had acquired equal pay, contraception and abortion rights, and had a generation of young men who were gentle hippies rather than aggressive and violent macho abusers.

Sorry but what site have you seen punching, strangulation and anal rape on? I don't want to be dismissive of you have, but young men are not routinely watching that, lord.

I think that may have been a slight exaggeration. Not saying it's not out there because anything is available on the internet but these are very extreme 'genres'. The average bloke isn't watching this, only sick men. The very same who'd have been killers 40 years ago, without the internet.

@deadleaves

You don't need to have sexual experience to have a sexual preference. In my day, I would actively seek out animé porn, because I watched animé and found the characters attractive. A lot of guys start with "big boobs" or what-not

I find this denial that porn is shaping the sexual desires of children really naive. Why do you think that boys now think girls like anal, being slapped, being choked, being spat on, having their hair pulled? All common experiences from the accounts of young women? Do you think it is a genetic mutation that has affected this generation and its just a coincidence that it coincides with what they see on porn?

People's tastes are easy to manipulate. Pretty much the whole of capitalism relies on this! They are not just helping us to discover what we like. They shape what we want. The entire fashion industry relies on this. The whole of advertising and marketing relies on this.
Pretty much all of retail relies on this.

You're absolutely right that porn shapes our tastes. Things like slapping bums and choking and hair pulling...

But some women enjoy that. Personally, I do. Others do to, as long as it's consensual rough play. We should never accept rape and sexual violence but these things aren't inherently bad if consented to privately. Not we're they only discovered In the last 20 years via the internet

@deadleaves
I find this denial that porn is shaping the sexual desires of children really naive.

I think it normalises certain acts, but it's very difficult to create a desire that does not exist in the first place.
This is what the algorithms you initially mentioned are doing. They are not randomly throwing items into your line of sight, they are looking at what other people like you have wanted and are showing you those things, because there is much more success in getting people to buy what they already want.

You'd have to look at how sex and porn have changed in the last decade or so. Your premise seems to be that physical abuse in porn became more prevalent, then physical abuse during sexual relationships became more prevalent.

I can see how that could seem like it makes sense, but my question would then be what is the actual impetus for creating abusive porn in the first place, rather than simply showing two people having "vanilla" sex or not going beyond softcore in the first place?

It leaves the producers relatively vulnerable (potential social backlash and legal ramifications) and could have, based on your theory, been easily replaced with something far more tame, because people will consume whatever they're told to consume.

You're absolutely right that porn shapes our tastes. Things like slapping bums and choking and hair pulling...But some women enjoy that. Personally, I do. Others do to, as long as it's consensual rough play

But you are talking about a consensual niche. That is not what I am referring to. I am talking about men just expecting that they should do this and women will like it. And the men just doing it to the women.
No conversation, no consent. I have just read a tsunami of these stories from young women who just unexpectedly get choked, slapped (face, not arse), pulled around by their hair. I got around when I was younger and I never experienced that. I read a ' fun' article in the metro a few years back, where women where invited to shared their 'funny' stories of men's bad habits in bed. There weren't accounts of farting in there. All of the stories were of borderline to actual abuse and these women were just presenting them as ' ha ha, what are men like!?' And obviously since then there has been a lot more in the media, and accounts from young women on here, of much of the same of this. They've got it from porn. .

I think it normalises certain acts, but it's very difficult to create a desire that does not exist in the first place.

Porn is a commodity, and like any other commodity in a capitalist society, of course you can create desires that did not previously exist. Especially when you can put huge amounts of product on the internet for people to access instantly.

There would not be any trends in any part of society fashion, makeup, hair, food if it wasn't possible to create new desires in people.

Completely agree, violent porn should be treated like child sexual abuse images

Stronger sentences for possessing porn or for any sex crimes

Stronger legislation for dealing with deadbeat dads

The thing that really upsets me is the fact that we are technically the majority - 51% of the population I think - and we are being PERSECUTED

I can see how that could seem like it makes sense, but my question would then be what is the actual impetus for creating abusive porn in the first place, rather than simply showing two people having "vanilla" sex or not going beyond softcore in the first place?

Well to get more business. The more you have to sell the more money you make. Even people within the porn industry have expressed concern about how extreme porn is getting.

You are right that porn is tapping into sexist and misogynistic ideas in society. Where I think I disagree with you is that you seem to think porn is not a problem as it merely reflects what people want anyway.
I think that porn is acting as a great exaggerator. There's an unvirtuous circle going on. And yes, I do think there are men, especially as their tastes are being shaped by porn from a young age, who now like aggressive sex who would not have wanted aggressive sex if porn had not shaped that desire.

@dreamingbohemian

I think it normalises certain acts, but it's very difficult to create a desire that does not exist in the first place.

Porn is a commodity, and like any other commodity in a capitalist society, of course you can create desires that did not previously exist. Especially when you can put huge amounts of product on the internet for people to access instantly.

There would not be any trends in any part of society fashion, makeup, hair, food if it wasn't possible to create new desires in people.

Quite.

You could also compare violent porn to online radicalisation of terrorists and extremists.

Many people who are radicalised do not start out wanting to join these movements, or travel to Syria to fight or whatever. They are gradually drawn farther and farther down that road. Not everyone will actually become violent, but for those who do, this online radicalisation was a key influence.

The radicalisation is not the root cause -- it is taking advantage of other factors (alienation, political grievances, oppression). But it's still enormously important.

The government spends a huge amount of money countering terrorist radicalisation, shame they can't do the same about violent porn.

For the former, even the slightest contact with radicalising content gets you referred to the authorities; for the latter, they can't even institute an age verification system for porn because it's too complicated, boo hoo.