Campaigners lose abortion fight

[EmeraldRaine]

Heidi Crowter and a few others were campaigning to remove the right for women to choose abortion if their baby was found to be affected by Downs syndrome. These campaigners feel that women shouldn't have the right to terminate a pregnancy because the foetus has Downs Syndrome, because it discriminates against people with Downs syndrome.

Cant help but think that this was a victory for common sense. Downs syndrome like every other disability is different from person to person and lots of people would feel unable to cope with a child with a lifelong disability. To say that isn't discriminating against disabled people. The only person who has the right to choose in every single case, is the woman who is pregnant. Perhaps these campaigners would be better off campaiging for better support for disabled people and their carers than trying to remove women's rights to make decisions that are best for them.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-coventry-warwickshire-58662846

For every person with ds that requires 24hr care I could show you at least 3 that are living relatively independent- and definitely happy and fulfilled - lives

Even if this is true - although “relatively” is doing a lot of heavy lifting there - early onset dementia is ubiquitous in individuals with Down Syndrome.

Care needs will rise substantially in their middle age.

So sorry for your loss shush 💐

And 💐 for anyone in this position

Sorry for your loss @ShushShushShush.

[quote pinkpip100]@Clymene as stated below, I think the right decision was made as I don't agree with any erosion of women's reproductive rights.
That doesn't mean I have to agree with any of the ableist crap that is being posted on here by some. [/quote]
It's not ableist to object to absurdly positive portrayals of disability in the media.

Oh shush
I am so sorry, you were and are so brave.

And I so very sorry for your loss @ShushShushShush

I think today's outcome was the right one.

I don't for one second think that a child with Downs is worth less than a child without. That's not what this is about. This is about women having the right to choose and recognizing that it is not mine or anyone else's place to decide what reason is 'good enough'. Not wanting to be pregnant anymore is enough of a reason.

My first daughter was diagnosed with a partial chromosome deletion that would have meant she needed care for life, in our case the decision was made for us, she died at 20 weeks. Had she not I would have been faced with this kind of decision. What sort of life would she have? Would she survive birth? Who would look after her when I was gone? These are the questions that you have to ask yourself and so many more when you get a diagnosis like we did. I can't say what my decision would have been, that's not the path I ended up going down, as I say, the choice was made for me but I cannot and will not judge anyone who decides to end things. Whatever their reason. Forced birth is abhorrent.

As early as possible. As late as necessary.

It's great to have disability representation in the media and it's quite mean to parents of disabled kids to insist they should be hidden away, or that their kids are all this and that.

Nobody's basing their TMFR decision off CBeebies alone, mothers will have actual medical advice before making that choice. A DS presenter isn't enforcing some kind of insidious pro life agenda, he's just a positive role model doing his job and getting paid.

I'm so sorry @ShushShushShush, I'm glad you got that precious time with your beautiful boy

It's not ableist to object to absurdly positive portrayals of disability in the media so what do you think Cbeebies, for example, should do?

"It's not ableist to object to absurdly positive portrayals of disability in the media."
Actually, it is.

Samcro
"Abortion should be available until birth" Problem solved..

So you're saying it's perfectly fine to abort a baby at nearly full term.
"until birth" were your words, no one else's before you come back with the old "Don't twist my words", chestnut.

@Sudokuzebra came here to say exactly this! "You can't force a woman to give birth" - those posters saying that do know that abortion doesn't just make the baby disappear, right?

I personally don't think abortion should be allowed after 24 weeks. Induce birth if that's required or wanted but the resulting baby should be entitled to the same care as anyone else (palliative or otherwise - whatever is determined to be in their best interests either by their parents or by their doctors).

@Clymene *Yes. Fewer than 20% have an IQ of over 50. And I've never met anyone with downs who hasn't had multiple other health conditions. We all know there is bugger all social care provision and sod all respite care.

Caring for children with profound intellectual disability is a lifelong commitment. There is no happy retirement. There are no relaxing holidays when your children have grown up. It is endless.*

Not sure if I'm misunderstanding you but surely the answer to this is better social care provisions for people with DS (and other disabilities), not aborting them after 24 weeks..

@Samcro

abortion should be available up to birth. problem solved.

Hey there Satan

Forcing a woman to carry a foetus she does not want for months on end which is what you're advocating r@Pikamoo is denying her fundamental rights over her body. It's a disgraceful position

[quote Libraryghost]@JoborPlay your comments are disgraceful. Of course we should have positive role models for disabled people. What the hell is wrong with you? We could all get dementia, we could all end up needing care one day. Perhaps NO babies should be born in case they end up being a burden. Have some humanity for Gods sake.[/quote]
I didn't say there shouldn't be positive role models for people with disabilities. Of course there should. What I said was that these campaigners are being disingenuous in using those as examples as being typical of people who have down syndrome (which is what they are doing). As it isn't true.

pinkpip100

When it's about a court case then an honest representation of the "average" or both extremes, or the whole range of potential severities should be shown.

Of course we should have representatives of all people on TV, in non court arenas. But not in court cases.

@Clymene

Forcing a woman to carry a foetus she does not want for months on end which is what you're advocating r@Pikamoo is denying her fundamental rights over her body. It's a disgraceful position

That's not what I said at all. If a woman doesnt want to be pregnant then of course the pregnancy should end. That's not synonymous with the baby dying though. Past 24 weeks the baby is viable even if the mother no longer wants to be pregnant.

but surely the answer to this is better social care provisions for people with DS (and other disabilities), not aborting them after 24 weeks..

Better social care provision is desperately needed regardless of the abortion debate, but try getting people to fund it. There was a very recent thread about the National Insurance rise recently and it was very clear from that that most people don't want to find better social care.

I'm glad they lost.

They don't get to decide what a woman does with her body.
DS is different and whilst you can have one with very mild health problems you could also have another that has a poorly heart etc.

Woman already have to fight for enough in this world.

@JoborPlay

but surely the answer to this is better social care provisions for people with DS (and other disabilities), not aborting them after 24 weeks..

Better social care provision is desperately needed regardless of the abortion debate, but try getting people to fund it. There was a very recent thread about the National Insurance rise recently and it was very clear from that that most people don't want to find better social care.

Of course, that's still not a justification for post viability abortions in my opinion.

No @Pikamoo. Half of foetuses born at 24 weeks die.

Are you suggesting that women who wish to abort should have early forced Labour instead? Wow.