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Campaigners lose abortion fight

459 replies

EmeraldRaine · 23/09/2021 16:09

Heidi Crowter and a few others were campaigning to remove the right for women to choose abortion if their baby was found to be affected by Downs syndrome. These campaigners feel that women shouldn't have the right to terminate a pregnancy because the foetus has Downs Syndrome, because it discriminates against people with Downs syndrome.

Cant help but think that this was a victory for common sense. Downs syndrome like every other disability is different from person to person and lots of people would feel unable to cope with a child with a lifelong disability. To say that isn't discriminating against disabled people. The only person who has the right to choose in every single case, is the woman who is pregnant. Perhaps these campaigners would be better off campaiging for better support for disabled people and their carers than trying to remove women's rights to make decisions that are best for them.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-coventry-warwickshire-58662846

OP posts:
WimpoleHat · 25/09/2021 11:51

The real world question that gets missed in all these debates is this: who are all these women that get to 25, 30, 39 weeks pregnant and then just decide to have an abortion for shits and giggles? It simply doesn’t happen. Being pregnant is bloody awful for the most part. Late abortions are taken up by women who have received devastating news at a scan at 20 weeks plus (or are extremely vulnerable in some other way). These are women who need and deserve support and compassion, not judgement.

Clocktopus · 25/09/2021 13:23

Very similar to the point I made earlier.

Right now any pregnant woman can have an abortion right up to 24wks simply because they do not want to be pregnant and yet very few women leave it until that stage, the vast majority of abortions take place prior to 12wks (with most of those happening before 10wks). The percentage that take place between 19wks and 24wks is in single figures (around 4% I think, I can't remember exactly without looking back at my earlier post) and most of those are done under the category of medical issues with the mother or medical issues with the foetus rather than not wanting to be pregnant.

Why on earth do people think that women would suddenly wait until 39wks to have an abortion just because it would be available until birth? Right now they can wait right up until 24wks but they don't, why would that change?

EmeraldRaine · 25/09/2021 13:44

You lit a blue touch paper and then left the area

Forgive me for having a life that doesn't revolve around Mumsnet. Grin

OP posts:
DebbieHarrysCheekbones · 25/09/2021 14:53

@EmeraldRaine

You lit a blue touch paper and then left the area

Forgive me for having a life that doesn't revolve around Mumsnet. Grin

See we can add facetious as well as nonsensical into the mix

I will save the grin emoticons for a thread that is perhaps more fitting rather than the one you started

AlfonsoTheMango · 25/09/2021 15:20

Campaigners lose abortion fight

Good. I'm glad. It's not their place to decide why women can have abortions.

Branleuse · 25/09/2021 23:47

[quote DebbieHarrysCheekbones]@EmeraldRaine

You lit a blue touch paper and then left the area
Now you return and attack two posters who’ve actually agreed with - as @MrsRobinsonsHandprints has pointed out - the basic thrust of your opinion

You’ve then resorted to sloppy insults by describing one of them as a keyboard warrior which is just asinine

There are lots of women on this thread @Branleuse
@ManifestDestinee
Being two of them whom you’ve singled out for criticism, who are actually championing a woman’s right to make this choice regardless of whether you or others consider then “unkind “ or “callous” in the process. They are upholding your point of view!

I would say to you that there’s been others on this thread you could pick out amongst when hyperbole such as “murder” “these sort of women” “ end the pregnancy hand the child over” and even at some point a analogy with late abortions being akin to Hitlerian practice. you can easily find more yourself. To me this is unkind: moral projections upon those who have or agree with acting within the confines of the law that upholds women’s bodily autonomy. That is unkind it’s also regressive. I’d tackle that first if I were you.

Being matter of fact and stating facts is not unkind. Those posters have no need to defend themselves. Especially not to you who started this thread because you believe exactly the same thing they have written.

There is no grey area here. It is either legal or illegal. Nobody has dismissed this process or said it’s a cake walk just because it’s legal. I understand that to women who had to end a much wanted pregnancy after 24 it is a life changing heartbreak. By reminding the thread - not the individual women as far as I am aware - that an unborn child is not a baby that legally it is a foetus, however is the basis by which women were able to end suffering and do the most selfless thing possible. In the midst of huge personal trauma and grief they had choice and dignity which as women we should fight with every fibre of our being to always uphold. For all of us. For any of us.

. Derailing this legal discussion to unpick whether someone is being unkind or not does not help women who are faced with this nightmare one jot. Reminding people we can do it if we absolutely have to most certainly is. Legal rights allow us as women from having to explain or defend our choices or dilute our words. I’m pretty certain the women who have had to endure this experience are on the same page as those you now suddenly don’t find favour with in that regard.[/quote]
Perfect

urcrazy101 · 30/09/2021 09:17

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urcrazy101 · 30/09/2021 09:18

@Clocktopus

Very similar to the point I made earlier.

Right now any pregnant woman can have an abortion right up to 24wks simply because they do not want to be pregnant and yet very few women leave it until that stage, the vast majority of abortions take place prior to 12wks (with most of those happening before 10wks). The percentage that take place between 19wks and 24wks is in single figures (around 4% I think, I can't remember exactly without looking back at my earlier post) and most of those are done under the category of medical issues with the mother or medical issues with the foetus rather than not wanting to be pregnant.

Why on earth do people think that women would suddenly wait until 39wks to have an abortion just because it would be available until birth? Right now they can wait right up until 24wks but they don't, why would that change?

Didn't mean to reply to your comment meant to say I completely agree with it I think it's ridiculous being able to wait up till that point
ElectricDeChocobo · 30/09/2021 12:01

@urcrazy101

Some people with DS can be successful entrepreneurs. Others need lifelong care. But don't let that get in the way if your forced birth agenda.

Clocktopus · 30/09/2021 13:07

And women (because let's face it, the bulk of caring responsibilities fall to women) would be gambling their career, finances, health (caring impacts this hugely), relationships, social life, and more on how several affected the child would be if they did continue the pregnancy.

Clocktopus · 30/09/2021 13:07

Severely

urcrazy101 · 30/09/2021 13:42

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urcrazy101 · 30/09/2021 14:00

@Clocktopus carrying on the pregnancy??
By 38 weeks the pregnancy is pretty much complete and done!

ElectricDeChocobo · 30/09/2021 14:38

[quote urcrazy101]@Clocktopus carrying on the pregnancy??
By 38 weeks the pregnancy is pretty much complete and done! [/quote]
Can you not comprehend that a woman who has an abortion at 38 weeks will be in extreme and distressing circumstances?

mapleleavesreturn · 30/09/2021 15:03

I supported Heidi's campaign as I felt strongly that the case being made - that it is disability discrimination to abort up to birth - was a valid point and that the community of Down's syndrome children and adults needed to see support for that.

I'm glad to read that in practice there have been no cases of late aborted downs foetuses.

In the end, I'd like to see as testing improves that the limit for all abortions is 24 weeks but I can see the point about time slippages on the 20 week scans and further testing as valid for where we are now.

I'm very sorry for anyone that's had to face such a choice.

Mordinvasnormandy · 30/09/2021 15:09

@mapleleavesreturn

I supported Heidi's campaign as I felt strongly that the case being made - that it is disability discrimination to abort up to birth - was a valid point and that the community of Down's syndrome children and adults needed to see support for that.

I'm glad to read that in practice there have been no cases of late aborted downs foetuses.

In the end, I'd like to see as testing improves that the limit for all abortions is 24 weeks but I can see the point about time slippages on the 20 week scans and further testing as valid for where we are now.

I'm very sorry for anyone that's had to face such a choice.

And yet you want to take away that choice.
Waxonwaxoff0 · 30/09/2021 15:13

[quote urcrazy101]@Clocktopus carrying on the pregnancy??
By 38 weeks the pregnancy is pretty much complete and done! [/quote]
Women do not lightly have abortions at 38 weeks for goodness sake.

urcrazy101 · 30/09/2021 17:23

They don't lightly have abortions, well if the baby has DS it seems they do? as it's been let to get to as far as hours or days before birth??
I don't care what anyone says, aborting a baby that far into pregnancy 38 weeks just because they are found to have DS is wrong on many levels. I am talking specifically about DS BTW

BernadetteRostankowskiWolowitz · 30/09/2021 17:46

In the end, I'd like to see as testing improves that the limit for all abortions is 24 weeks

Why does abortion need a limit?

It's already been said over and over on this thread that there is a nominal amount of late term (ie post 24week) abortions, and that they have all, without exception, been for reasons that are not simply "I don't want to be pregnant anymore".

Limits aren't necessary. They aren't humane. Abortion should be available to all women, at all times. Then those who disagree with abortion / think there should be a cap can factor that in if they find themselves in the position of considering one.

We should not restrict abortion at all. It is placing a restriction on someone else's body.

ElectricDeChocobo · 30/09/2021 18:09

@urcrazy101

They don't lightly have abortions, well if the baby has DS it seems they do? as it's been let to get to as far as hours or days before birth?? I don't care what anyone says, aborting a baby that far into pregnancy 38 weeks just because they are found to have DS is wrong on many levels. I am talking specifically about DS BTW
Except certain complications aren't spotted until later.

I suppose in your misogynistic mind you think post 24 weeks women suddenly go "oops, change my mind, I'll just nip into hospital for an abortion".

Clocktopus · 30/09/2021 18:27

They don't lightly have abortions, well if the baby has DS it seems they do? as it's been let to get to as far as hours or days before birth?? I don't care what anyone says, aborting a baby that far into pregnancy 38 weeks just because they are found to have DS is wrong on many levels. I am talking specifically about DS BTW

The number of abortions occurring post-24wks is tiny, see earlier in the thread for figures (it's less than 1%) and all of these are for medical reasons. There is not going to suddenly be a slew of women wanting to abort at 38wks just because they can, any abortions happening at that stage (which will be incredibly rare) will be for medical reasons.

At the moment any woman can abortions up until 24wks for any reason, even a simple "I don't want to be pregnant", and even with that 24wk limit the vast majority of women have an abortion prior to 12wks - in other words, as early as possible. They don't decide to wait until 23wks and 6 days just because they can so why do you think they would wait until 38wks just because they can?

Talking specifically about DS, as others in the thread have pointed out, it is a variable condition and can have various co-morbidities. If a woman wants additional time, after the 24wk mark, to have further tests, to seek counselling, to talk/think it over, to learn more about the implications and potential outcomes of what has been diagnosed then she should have that time. If she then decides not to proceed then she should have that right too and she should not have to justify that to anyone.

voldr · 05/10/2021 12:01

She's taking it to the court of appeal. They're really determined to deny women choice, aren't they?

Clocktopus · 05/10/2021 12:04

Ironic really that they/their mothers were given a choice and they now want to deny other women that same choice.

I hope they lose.

MarthaJonesPhone · 05/10/2021 12:07

@Aroundtheworldin80moves

I do have sympathy with them (although I disagree with them).

More support for families with children with disabilities is needed.

No it really shouldn't. My twins were born prem and honestly your comment makes me want to vomit.

I'm pro abortion but you are actually talking about murdering a viable life. Utterly appalling.

MarthaJonesPhone · 05/10/2021 12:09

Shit sorry quoted the wrong poster.

I was trying to reply to the poster who said abortion should be available up until birth. Apologies

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