Campaigners lose abortion fight

[EmeraldRaine]

Heidi Crowter and a few others were campaigning to remove the right for women to choose abortion if their baby was found to be affected by Downs syndrome. These campaigners feel that women shouldn't have the right to terminate a pregnancy because the foetus has Downs Syndrome, because it discriminates against people with Downs syndrome.

Cant help but think that this was a victory for common sense. Downs syndrome like every other disability is different from person to person and lots of people would feel unable to cope with a child with a lifelong disability. To say that isn't discriminating against disabled people. The only person who has the right to choose in every single case, is the woman who is pregnant. Perhaps these campaigners would be better off campaiging for better support for disabled people and their carers than trying to remove women's rights to make decisions that are best for them.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-coventry-warwickshire-58662846

All these posters who are aghast at the "up to birth" comment must think there are swathes of women out there who got to 39 weeks and suddenly decided they didn't want to go through with the pregnancy. Like it's a "thing" and if we start allowing it, it will happen.

Abortion as early as possible and as late as necessary means that the one single woman in the whole of history who has a reason for putting her body through an abortion at 39 weeks is able to access one.

Why restrict abortion to 24 weeks when those who abort after that point only do so because they didn't have enough medical information or time to process it before the current deadline?

@BernadetteRostankowskiWolowitz

All these posters who are aghast at the "up to birth" comment must think there are swathes of women out there who got to 39 weeks and suddenly decided they didn't want to go through with the pregnancy. Like it's a "thing" and if we start allowing it, it will happen.

Abortion as early as possible and as late as necessary means that the one single woman in the whole of history who has a reason for putting her body through an abortion at 39 weeks is able to access one.

Why restrict abortion to 24 weeks when those who abort after that point only do so because they didn't have enough medical information or time to process it before the current deadline?

Exactly. I'd imagine that if the law were changed to allow termination at any point during a pregnancy for any reason, late terminations would remain exactly as they are. Very few and in heartbreaking scenarios. As so many women have bravely described on this thread.

Exactly bernadette

It is obviously not going to be a decision made lightly, and will involve a multidisciplinary approach from the professionals to make sure it is the right decision for the mother and their family.

It must be unimaginably hard for the women who decide to go down such a route late in pregnancy so the last thing they need is judgment from people who know nothing about their situation

@Clymene

No *@Pikamoo*. Half of foetuses born at 24 weeks die.

Are you suggesting that women who wish to abort should have early forced Labour instead? Wow.

Yes, 50% survive and 50% don't. That's why it's considered the point of viability.

If what you're asking me is whether I believe women shouldn't be allowed to kill the unborn foetus prior to labour, yes. That's exactly what I believe. I think there should be an exception where the foetus has a condition that's incompatible with life but Down Syndrome doesn't fit that criteria.

@Pikamoo in your opinion DS doesn't fit that criteria. In mine it does. You would continue the pregnancy I would not. Luckily we both have that choice

Not a single foetus has been aborted after 24 weeks in the last 10 years purely for having downs @Pikamoo

So you're arguing against something that doesn't actually happen.

And thankfully people like you who wish to roll back abortion rights were defeated yesterday.

50 percent of Babies born at 24 weeks survive with medical intervention, not naturally

Exactly. I'd imagine that if the law were changed to allow termination at any point during a pregnancy for any reason, late terminations would remain exactly as they are

The data shows there would be LESS. Easy access to abortion means earlier safer abortions.

Again, all of those calling us satan and the like for advocating for this, do they think Canada is Hell or something? Are all Canadians evil baby killers?

@Clymene

No *@Pikamoo*. Half of foetuses born at 24 weeks die.

Are you suggesting that women who wish to abort should have early forced Labour instead? Wow.

Call me a forced birther, I don't care but I agree with @Pikamoo especially if we were to allow more liberal laws for all fetuses

Nobody is suggesting forced birth. You can end your pregnancy. If the baby is too premature to survive, then that's a natural consequence of the woman's right to choose but why should it be allowed that a healthy fetus be killed intentionally past 24w?

You can even have a GA and a c section. It's coming out one way or another, why must ot be dead? A severely disabled baby, medical termination, can be justified as the fetus would not have a good quality of life not the mother. What justification if there for aborting a healthy one that late?

And yes it could happen due to finances, divorce, religion and concealing pregnancy, infidelity.

I can't belive that people think that allowing induction of a pregnancy at 24 weeks is better than abortion.

Babies aren't born healthy at 24 weeks.

So that child would be condemned to a struggle at birth, with no parent there to advocate for it, and then a life of who knows what health implications, which would mean they are far less likely to be adopted (if both parents even agree to adoption), if it even survives, its very likely to die at that gestation. So the woman suffers, and the baby suffers.

Why on earth is that better than a woman choosing abortion?

I can’t get my head around killing a viable human being, which is what termination after 24 weeks is.

[quote flippertyop]@Pikamoo in your opinion DS doesn't fit that criteria. In mine it does. You would continue the pregnancy I would not. Luckily we both have that choice [/quote]
Its not an opinion, it's a medical fact. Being born without a brain is incompatible with life, being born with an extra 23rd chromosome is not. I would abort if I was pregnant with a child with Down Syndrome, not past the point of viability though.

LateDecemberBackInLowB12 induction of labour at 24 weeks is clearly not a great option but if a woman doesnt wish to continue the pregnancy (which is absolutely her right) then that's what I think should happen. If the parents/doctors decide that it's in the baby's best interests to provide palliative care only then that's what happens. I just think it's wrong to deny a chance at life where one exists.

@Mybalconyiscracking

I can’t get my head around killing a viable human being, which is what termination after 24 weeks is.

Well aren't you lucky that you'll never have to. But what has that got to do with anyone else?

@Pikamoo

LateDecemberBackInLowB12 induction of labour at 24 weeks is clearly not a great option but if a woman doesnt wish to continue the pregnancy (which is absolutely her right) then that's what I think should happen. If the parents/doctors decide that it's in the baby's best interests to provide palliative care only then that's what happens. I just think it's wrong to deny a chance at life where one exists.

I think it's wrong to force a (possibly very short) life of health problems and pain onto someone who, if they do get a chance to grow up, will know their problems are all caused by not being wanted.

I cant see how subjecting someone to that is better than allowing a woman an abortion.

BTW, can we stop calling pregnant women mothers? They're still women, and the whole point is usually (though not always) that they are choosing NOT to be mothers.

And what's going to happen to these babies who are born very prematurely @Pikamoo?

How many severely disabled children have you adopted?

@Mybalconyiscracking

I can’t get my head around killing a viable human being, which is what termination after 24 weeks is.

Well then consider yourself lucky that you aren’t one of the (thankfully tiny) amount of women who have to face that decision. I can’t even begin to imagine the emotional turmoil something like that would bring and find it sad someone feels it’s a situation to judge someone negatively for being in

I don't understand people who seem perfectly happy at some arbitrary cut off and judgemental after that point. They seem to be saying "oh I'm pro-choice up until 23 weeks and 6 days and then you're a baby killing evil monster the day after".

What is that about? There's no logic to it. At least a position like mine has some logic to it: that an arbitrary line is pointless and everyone should be able to make their own choices.

I’m a retired doctor, and I am surprised at the arrogance of some PPs who presume to dictate, to pregnant women, what they should be permitted to do with their own bodies.
Termination (for any reason) is a personal medical matter between a woman and her obstetrician.
If PPs don’t approve of termination, fine - don’t have one. But don’t try to impose your views on everyone else.

@ManifestDestinee

BTW, can we stop calling pregnant women mothers? They're still women, and the whole point is usually (though not always) that they are choosing NOT to be mothers.

Would've though I woman having a TMFR would appreciate being called a mother. I'd never call a woman having an early abortion a mother as it's usually the case she wouldn't want to be

@Babdoc

I’m a retired doctor, and I am surprised at the arrogance of some PPs who presume to dictate, to pregnant women, what they should be permitted to do with their own bodies. Termination (for any reason) is a personal medical matter between a woman and her obstetrician. If PPs don’t approve of termination, fine - don’t have one. But don’t try to impose your views on everyone else.

That's not how morality works I'm afraid. If you don't agree with physical punishment don't beat your kids? If you don't agree with pregnant women shooting drugs don't do drugs yourself?

Would've though I woman having a TMFR would appreciate being called a mother. I'd never call a woman having an early abortion a mother as it's usually the case she wouldn't want to be

The vast majority of terminations are not TMFR so calling a huge minority mothers because a tiny minority might like to be is insulting and ridiculous.

That's not how morality works I'm afraid

Why do you need 'morality' for personal and private medical decisions made between a woman and her doctor?

@Clymene

And what's going to happen to these babies who are born very prematurely *@Pikamoo*?

How many severely disabled children have you adopted?

As has been said many timesbybpeople defending this ruling, in practice this doesn't happen. There would not be a glut of premature parentless babies if it was ruled that abortion after 24 weeks was only allowed in cases where the babies condition is incompatible with life.