Campaigners lose abortion fight

[EmeraldRaine]

Heidi Crowter and a few others were campaigning to remove the right for women to choose abortion if their baby was found to be affected by Downs syndrome. These campaigners feel that women shouldn't have the right to terminate a pregnancy because the foetus has Downs Syndrome, because it discriminates against people with Downs syndrome.

Cant help but think that this was a victory for common sense. Downs syndrome like every other disability is different from person to person and lots of people would feel unable to cope with a child with a lifelong disability. To say that isn't discriminating against disabled people. The only person who has the right to choose in every single case, is the woman who is pregnant. Perhaps these campaigners would be better off campaiging for better support for disabled people and their carers than trying to remove women's rights to make decisions that are best for them.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-coventry-warwickshire-58662846

@BoredZelda

I think it is problematic when someone with a particular disability has thrived and then insists everyone with the same disability should be thought of in the same way. One of the most difficult thing parents of profoundly disabled children have to see, is others raving about how it is all sunshine and laughter and how much joy their child brings, when their own child suffers every day. For every parent celebrating their adult child with Down syndrome graduating, or getting a job, there are dozens more fretting about who will take care of their adult child when the parents are no longer around.

What is important is that we educate people about the potential risks, hardships, struggles and give them as much information as we can, in order to help them make a decision which suits their own circumstances. Painting it as a rosy picture helps nobody.

Unfortunately, so true.

Having been pregnant and given birth 3 times, willingly, I cannot imagine doing it against my will. I’d rather be dead.

The mental, physical and financial toll pregnancy takes on a woman is huge. Childbirth is the most dangerous thing we will ever do and until recently was still the biggest killer of women by a fucking long shot.

We get to choose our futures. I want my daughters to grow up in a world where they have full bodily autonomy.

Banning abortions is the patriarchy at its best; men can walk from a pregnancy take no responsibility, leaving the woman to raise a child. No child support. No co parenting. We need that option too.

@Paranoidandroidmarvin

This is the kind of thing that should be left to doctors to decide. They are the experts.

This completely. The law has no place in these decisions.

I understand the depth of feeling but both sides are entitled to their views what is more is that there are a whole spectrum of views in between. The new court ruling is unlikely to be the end of the matter for both sides as feeling are so strongly felt

There are a mere handful of people globally with Down's syndrome who have graduated.

I have a child with additional needs. He is isn't intellectually affected in any way but it has a profound impact on him. And on our family. We cannot goon 'normal' holidays. We don't go to restaurants. He doesn't go on sleepovers, he doesn't go on school trips. He cannot be left alone for more than a few hours.

I have absolutely no interest in the opinions of people who have neurotypical children getting teary eyed about the joy of raising children with additional needs.

Decisions like this aren’t going to be taken lightly, even if it’s not something I think I would ever do my heart goes out to those who have to make such a decision.

Ultimately it’s the woman’s decision with the support of medical team and hopefully close family to make the right choice for them at that point in their life.

What really pisses me off is making the likes of Heidi and George (cbeebies presenter) the bloody poster children for downs. For every working, independent person with down syndrome I can show you 3 who require 24hour residential care due to their very high level of need or their early onset dementia (early as in mid 30s). Don't be disingenuous and only show one end of the scale.

@JoborPlay

What really pisses me off is making the likes of Heidi and George (cbeebies presenter) the bloody poster children for downs. For every working, independent person with down syndrome I can show you 3 who require 24hour residential care due to their very high level of need or their early onset dementia (early as in mid 30s). Don't be disingenuous and only show one end of the scale.

Yes. Fewer than 20% have an IQ of over 50. And I've never met anyone with downs who hasn't had multiple other health conditions. We all know there is bugger all social care provision and sod all respite care.

Caring for children with profound intellectual disability is a lifelong commitment. There is no happy retirement. There are no relaxing holidays when your children have grown up. It is endless.

@JoborPlay so someone with talent as a children's tv presenter such as George should be denied a job just in case he gives a positive impression of what it means to have down syndrome? And Heidi shouldn't be allowed to be in the public domain for the same reason. For every person with ds that requires 24hr care I could show you at least 3 that are living relatively independent- and definitely happy and fulfilled - lives.

[quote pinkpip100]@JoborPlay so someone with talent as a children's tv presenter such as George should be denied a job just in case he gives a positive impression of what it means to have down syndrome? And Heidi shouldn't be allowed to be in the public domain for the same reason. For every person with ds that requires 24hr care I could show you at least 3 that are living relatively independent- and definitely happy and fulfilled - lives. [/quote]
I don't believe you.

What on earth have I walked into here? So many really extreme views, please tell me the majority of MN don't genuinely agree with abortion up to birth? Wtf? Sorry but that is barbaric; so the baby I give birth to could legally have its life extinguished the day before under the all encompassing umbrella of "my right to choose"? Totally out of step with a civilised, humane society.

Maybe the girl or woman has been kept from appointments so is past 24 weeks

Or, the woman I know who had her 20 week scan delayed for two weeks because there were no appointments available, needed a follow up scan with a consultant a week then it took them over a week to send her the results meaning she was now 25 weeks when she was told her son had a rare genetic disorder and had passed the cut off if she chose an abortion. This particular disorder was not on the “approved” list because it is so rare.

I love that we are seeing more positive role models with disabilities in the media. However we can’t let their achievements distract from the fact that their are also many many people who are impacted very differently by the same disabilities so will never be able to live independently (and a while spectrum between)

@Clymene that's up to you - but it's true. Your experience is different to mine, but that doesn't mean you're telling the truth and I'm not.

[quote pinkpip100]@JoborPlay so someone with talent as a children's tv presenter such as George should be denied a job just in case he gives a positive impression of what it means to have down syndrome? And Heidi shouldn't be allowed to be in the public domain for the same reason. For every person with ds that requires 24hr care I could show you at least 3 that are living relatively independent- and definitely happy and fulfilled - lives. [/quote]
The first part was never said.

The second part is a lie.

@JoborPlay

What really pisses me off is making the likes of Heidi and George (cbeebies presenter) the bloody poster children for downs. For every working, independent person with down syndrome I can show you 3 who require 24hour residential care due to their very high level of need or their early onset dementia (early as in mid 30s). Don't be disingenuous and only show one end of the scale.

So what's the alternative? Keep them out of the public eye or do an announcement every time they're on that they're not "typical"? Hire young people with more complex DS to sit in the studio as a learning point?

@JoborPlay

What really pisses me off is making the likes of Heidi and George (cbeebies presenter) the bloody poster children for downs. For every working, independent person with down syndrome I can show you 3 who require 24hour residential care due to their very high level of need or their early onset dementia (early as in mid 30s). Don't be disingenuous and only show one end of the scale.

Yeh it's bloody disgraceful of them showing positive role models with downs syndrome. While we're at it, let's abolish the paralympic games. I'd hate for anyone to get the wrong impression that disabled people can live rich and fulfilling lives! Colour me sceptical that you know four people with downs syndrome given what a disparaging view you have of them.

@Yarqueen - exactly.

@Yarqueen

What on earth have I walked into here? So many really extreme views, please tell me the majority of MN don't genuinely agree with abortion up to birth? Wtf? Sorry but that is barbaric; so the baby I give birth to could legally have its life extinguished the day before under the all encompassing umbrella of "my right to choose"? Totally out of step with a civilised, humane society.

Madness, isn't it? I think I'll be hiding this one, people take everything to extremes and can't think rationally. You'll be flamed for being anti abortion now.

so someone with talent as a children's tv presenter such as George should be denied a job just in case he gives a positive impression of what it means to have down syndrome? And Heidi shouldn't be allowed to be in the public domain for the same reason. For every person with ds that requires 24hr care I could show you at least 3 that are living relatively independent- and definitely happy and fulfilled - lives.

Of course that isn’t what is being said, you know that.

It is important people have all the information rather than the picture of joy that is painted. Even your comments about happy and fulfilled lives and “relatively independent” are unnecessarily optimistic. That relative independence relies on others to provide for them and with services cut year on year that falls to family who aren’t always equipped to do so.

Everyone claims they want to protect these precious lives, but where is the clamour to insist we properly fund the long term care? Where is the public outcry from non disabled people when PIP is cut and services decimated? Your 1 in 4 comment hides a lot of important detail.

[quote pinkpip100]@Clymene that's up to you - but it's true. Your experience is different to mine, but that doesn't mean you're telling the truth and I'm not. [/quote]
Only 19% of people with Downs have an IQ of over 50.

library.down-syndrome.org/en-us/research-practice/11/1/mental-health-behaviour-intellectual-abilities-people-down-syndrome

So the idea that 3 out of 4 of people with Downs live independent lives is simply not true. They may be happy of course, but they are not able to live independently.

In any event, the Court heard that no woman has aborted her foetus at more than 24 weeks for having Downs with no other conditions incompatible with life for more than 10 years.

So it's a non issue. It's trying to push back abortion rights by the back door and Heidi is being manipulated

My husbands auntie had a Down syndrome son in the 1950s. Typical story she thought it was the menopause but it was a late baby. She adored him but it likely finished her off far before her time. He brought something wonderful into her life but he also took her health. It’s a hard one. I suspect more women would go ahead with these pregnancies with the right support. I wouldn’t feel comfortable telling any woman what to do in this situation. I will say I have never met a Down syndrome person who isn’t goodness personified but would I want the responsibility- probably not.

@Clymene as stated below, I think the right decision was made as I don't agree with any erosion of women's reproductive rights.
That doesn't mean I have to agree with any of the ableist crap that is being posted on here by some.

My ds was born at 21+4 after a devastating anomaly scan which I faced alone (covid). I was "fortunate" that I was given a fetal medicine scan only 48 hours after my anomaly scan so was able to go from a vague "your baby has spina bifida" to "your baby boy had myelomeningocele spina bifida with Arnold Chiari 2 malformation, we can't see his cerebellum and his spinal cord is open at S2, his brain is being pulled into his neck and every time he moves, he does himself more damage". He was given a 30% chance of having any quality of life. That's if he survived to term. And survived birth. And survived the multiples of invasive brain, spine, bowel operations. That's without the breathing and feeding issues. That's if he wasn't taken by an infection. In the middle of a pandemic.

He was so wanted and so desperately loved. I was not prepared to out him though a short life filled with suffering, pain and struggle. I have no doubt he would have been a joy, but he would never have left an incubator in a children's hospital. I wasn't willing to play Russian roulette with his life. He was born living and stayed alive for a precious hour and a half. He has a birth and death certificate. Obtaining a birth certificate for a baby born prior to 24 weeks is hellish. I then had to endure an inquest into his death.

TFMR or compassionate induction is the most hellish, devastating, distressing and traumatising experience I have ever been through. I have PTSD from it.

I do not know one other TFMR mum who is not forever changed by her experience. I held my son, loved him, took his hand and footprints, told him how desperately sorry I was, sang to him, read to him, rocked him. I had him baptised just after he passed, while he was still warm. He slept in between my husband and I while we cradled him, in a blanket I had hastily made for him, in a hat I crocheted so that he would have something from me.

It is incredibly rare for it to be a surgical termination after about 16 weeks. So we give birth. We go to hospital, are induced, and give birth to loved, wanted, prayed for babies, who we will never get to take home. Because we wanted to spare them pain and suffering. I took his pain so that he never had to endure it. I will carry the suffering and grief of his loss in my heart forever.

TFMR is healthcare. But not just for the mother, its healthcare for the baby too

@JoborPlay your comments are disgraceful. Of course we should have positive role models for disabled people. What the hell is wrong with you? We could all get dementia, we could all end up needing care one day. Perhaps NO babies should be born in case they end up being a burden. Have some humanity for Gods sake.