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So he got the dogs out and left the people behind?!

445 replies

Sillysuzie · 31/08/2021 08:39

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/aug/30/britain-dogs-afghan-people-pen-farthing

OP posts:
Florelei · 01/09/2021 17:50

I would like to know how many eligible people were actually stopped from leaving.

If there were so many eligible people available why were flights going out with spare seats? Surely this wasn’t all caused by a few hundred dogs?

PwySyddYma · 01/09/2021 17:51

Sorry quote fail my response was to redtoothbrush

HamiltonHouse · 01/09/2021 17:53

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KeflavikAirport · 01/09/2021 17:56

The BBC is quoting Raab as saying numbers in the low hundreds were left behind but that is pretty much a guesstimate

HamiltonHouse · 01/09/2021 18:05

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Florelei · 01/09/2021 18:08

Yes I understand that people were left behind. However, our last flight left a day before the agreed cut off date. Why weren’t those left behind provided with additional flights? How does this correlate to 200 dogs being flown out?

RedToothBrush · 01/09/2021 18:14

The main issue on the ground was people not having the correct paperwork that was being demanded.

This was dealt with by staff in London and soliders in Kabul who weren't used to handling such things - the embassy staff who would shipped out immediately leaving them to deal with it.

There are reportedly thousands of emails which werent even looked at.

This then becomes about how much time staff had to devote to answering media inquiries about dogs, having to sort out emails for help versus anger emails from animal welfare activists as much as where the dogs went. You then have staff at gates dealing with this convoy coming through - thats extra vehicles and extra times opening gates and holding up others also queuing in the process and checking all the relevant paperwork for the dogs. And then loading onto aircraft. Even if this was voluntary and on breaks it still would have taken precious time from other tasks people may have done on breaks in crisis management stages and it certainly led to resentment amongst some service personnel (both british and american). Remember it was Americans on the Abbey Gate that some had wanted to shut permanently shortly before the terror attacks occurred.

You couldn't just roll up to the entrance and get in. There were a whole load of processes and hoops to jump through which involved a large number of people to facilitate.

Saying it was just about dogs taking up space is very naive and doesn't reflect logistics at all.

Its a HUGE operation. At the time they had thousands of people who had been processed and were actually already in the airport who had to wait for hours for their flights. It was apparently up to 48 hours. Even the sky news guy who by his own admission was fast tracked had 7hrs waiting for his flight.

I doubt that people could have been put on Pens plane because the army had to have it guaranteed it would land. Until it actually did there werent sure. Then they would have wanted a civilian aircraft off the airfield asap. I note that they were sending off heat tracers from military aircraft as they took off because of the threat of heat seeking missiles to take out military planes which were thought a geninue risk.

They couldn't take the risk of adding people to another aircraft because passenger manifests for who was on board generally have to be done before departure even in those situations, so they know who they have actually taken (so they know they haven't left people behind in the airport). If Pens plane hadn't turned up they would have had to rejig other passenger manifests to accommodate them elsewhere.

These are the type of logistical and operational issues that had to be considered in a very short space of time.

Most people won't consider them because 'awww poor dogs didn't take up much space and went on their own plane' doesn't require much to comprend and to contextualise in the wider operation to evacuate.

ScribblingPixie · 01/09/2021 18:19

It doesn't, Florelei. The reasons for people being left behind seem to be because the Taliban were in control of Kabul (with US agreement) while the US held the airport. So the Taliban were able to prevent many Afghans/dual nationality citizen passing through their checkpoints to get the airport. Plus the US tightened requirements around the time of the suicide bombing so that left people outside too. Eligible people with young children weren't prepared to risk their safety in the chaos around the airport - one organiser of a flight to evacuate their staff said that none with kids made it to the plane and they left mostly empty. It was all about the panic and lack of planning. It has nothing to do with the animal charity - the MOD even made a statement (in response to a Spectator article) to say that no one was affected by their flight.

RedToothBrush · 01/09/2021 18:19

@Florelei

Yes I understand that people were left behind. However, our last flight left a day before the agreed cut off date. Why weren’t those left behind provided with additional flights? How does this correlate to 200 dogs being flown out?
We had to get out before the US. This is partly because of chain of command considerations. The moment the last few americans were evacuating was extremely dangerous as they had few people on the ground and would have been outnumbered by the Taliban. It left them extremely vulnerable to a potential attack if cooperation hadnt held until the very end.

If you had British soliders on the ground too, in this situation it would have made it incredibly difficult to defend / evacuate.

It was necessary for the british to go and leave final operations on the ground to one force - so we will have had an earlier deadline to met. The US were still dealing with their own evacuation and our people weren't their priority / responsibility.

The uk government wanted to stay longer but relied on the greater man power of the us for security. We wouldnt have an option to continue operations for longer for that reason.

Florelei · 01/09/2021 18:22

I hope that our people get out - I see a Qatari plane has landed with a team to help the airport become operational again.

KeflavikAirport · 01/09/2021 18:22

Which is why animal rights activists are not best placed to decide what was right. I mean I am no Tory but the sheer brass neck of thinking you know how to manage an evacuation better than international crisis policy experts on the ground 🤯

RedToothBrush · 01/09/2021 18:24

@Florelei

I would like to know how many eligible people were actually stopped from leaving.

If there were so many eligible people available why were flights going out with spare seats? Surely this wasn’t all caused by a few hundred dogs?

And yes the Taliban were a barrier in this - they wanted paperwork to be perfect and used this deliberately against many.

And the situation got more and more unsafe, unsanitary and with a lack of food, shelter and water.

There are lots and lots of reasons why people didn't get out. Some were nothing to do with dogs. Some would have been indirect and unintentional though. Everything is interconnected in an evacuation.

Florelei · 01/09/2021 18:26

Thanks @RedToothBrush - I appreciate you taking the time to provide information.

Parker231 · 01/09/2021 18:50

@WanderingFruitWonderer

I find the misunderstanding and misinformation surrounding this so upsetting. It's very hurtful for people to essentially accuse PF and Operation Ark supporters of not being bothered about people, when literally the opposite is the case. Operation Ark was about people and animals. With a strong emphasis on the people, including children. I care about both people and animals, as do most people who are sympathetic to Operation Ark that I know. Anyway, I don't think I can cope with it anymore! Busy day, and I'm going to try to devote my spare time to seeing what I can do to help with further rescue efforts going forward. I don't like engaging with these threads, and try to stay away, but when I see the injustice of the false allegations, I feel I have to balance that out with the truth. Of course the real injustice is the fact that so many innocent Afghan people have been betrayed by western governments, and that's the thing we should collectively be working to resolve. I don't have a quarrel with anyone on this thread. My quarrel is with the powers that be. But, I just find it so upsetting that blame is being cast on one brave man, rather than on those who really should be held accountable. The whole point of life, in my view, is to help others, and eachother, and alleviate suffering wherever it is found (in people and animals) and try to replace it with love, peace, joy etc. It's not about a competition to see who is the most ethical, charitable etc. We should just all do what we can. Operation Ark was/is about that. Just one small thing people could do to rescue as many innocents (people and animals) as possible. That's all 🤷
The best comments I’ve read on this thread and similar. Thank you @WanderingFruitWonderer
TheThingsIDoForLove · 01/09/2021 18:56

I agree, great comment @WanderingFruitWonderer
Wish there were more people like you in the world.

ScribblingPixie · 01/09/2021 19:09

Well said, WanderingFruitWonderer.

EsmaCannonball · 01/09/2021 20:03

Last year the Taliban shot dead the dog belonging to a female sports coach. Apparently a female Afghan politician, now in hiding, has claimed the Taliban have hung her dog. Sadly, I think we'll be getting more of these horrible stories.

TheSinger · 01/09/2021 20:28

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TheSinger · 01/09/2021 20:33

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TheSinger · 01/09/2021 20:35

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SecretSpAD · 01/09/2021 20:52

I'm working my way through the thread...
It's possible to care about humans and animals equally and want all vulnerable people and animals to have a route to escape torture and death. Because that's what the Taliban do to both animals and humans who dare to want something other than what they are planning for Afghanistan.

My husband, many years ago, was in a similar position to that in which many people left in Afghanistan find themselves. He too was scared and angry at the lack of compassion and interest in his plight, the plight of the people in the country he was in and he too left many expletive filled messages on answer phones. Most of us will never be in the position where we may he tortured and killed and our body parts sent to our families to teach a lesson - or did you all miss what happened to a young gay man in the last week?

I don't know pen farthing but I do support his charity as friends of my husband are ex servicemen and women who served in Afghanistan. Like pen they found love and support from an animal there and Nowzad have helped them be reunited with their pets when they returned to the UK. Those animals made a difference to their mental health and the animals that Pen has brought back to the service,en and women who adopted them whilst in Afghanistan are going to make a difference to those peoples lives.

However, this is just a distraction and a diversion y the govt to fill the headlines and heads of silly people so they don't see the facts here -

We had time to plan and prepare
There was intel that the Taliban was ready to invade quickly but it was ignored
The PM, foreign secretary and permanent secretary were all on leave when Afghanistan fell to the Taliban.
They knew it could happen that fast
They did not plan, they did not prepare and they did not get vulnerable people out of that country as quickly as they should have and could have
They did not start talking to third countries about taking refugees
Obviously the bigger problem is Biden, but we cannot ignore our govts failings. It's nothing to do with one man and his 200 dogs.

SecretSpAD · 01/09/2021 20:53

One more thing....why are there no stories in the press about the other private planes run by defence contractors and general arseholes who were charging a small fortune to fly people out of the country.

EsmaCannonball · 01/09/2021 20:54

I've just seen the news about the UK failing to evacuate the Afghans who guarded the embassy, with politicians and officials accused of delays and a lack of urgency. It strikes me that the dogs got out because the human beings responsible for them took charge of the situation. The people who were meant to be responsible for our Afghan allies were just totally lackadaisical and inept. That's where the blame lies. I have no idea what Pen Farthing is really like as a person but I suspect had he been in Dominic Raab's position he would have been more committed to the issue at hand.

TheSinger · 01/09/2021 21:25

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