So he got the dogs out and left the people behind?!

[Sillysuzie]

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/aug/30/britain-dogs-afghan-people-pen-farthing

It’s almost like certain views are being pushed and others are being shut down. But people can see it happening.

Yes, VV, we can see it happening.

@Janiiejones

'MN, you do realise that allowing constant libel of a person like this can lead to legal problems for yourselves?'

You keep saying stuff like this, trying to silence people. It has been all over the main stream media and social media, we are allowed opinions on it. Stop trying to police threads just report any that may break TGs. .

'Many people will have now seen through him and his tactics, having heard his vile tirade and seen how his supporters have behaved.'

Absolutely. He needs to admit it was a combination of bad decisions, leaving it too late in a deteriorating situation and just admit he got it wrong. Sadly, for those left behind..

This is a political issue and a current news story, in which doubts have been cast and there has been an admission that things were not quite as had been stated afterall.

In terms of 'personal attacks' thats like saying that you can't be critical at all of people who have sort out a public profile to further their personal/political agenda. If you want to go down that route you eventually end up saying that people can't say anything about the PM himself. There's been lots of comments saying Wallace is a liar too, but I don't see anyone saying 'oi libel' for that. This is an illegitimate silencing technic.

The law in the UK firmly rests around the concept of 'in the public interest'. Is it in the public interest and worthy of debate to discuss whether this guy was able to lobby and apply pressure to government which others did not have the contacts to do? Yes absoluetely. Are we aware that this guy was omitting information or twisting things to get heard more? It certainly seems like it. Is there a debate to be had about how the Defence Secretary felt he had to deal with this and to publically defend civil servants who had been subject to abuse and to defend decisions he had made at a time of crisis? Yes definitely. Is there a debate to be had over the manipulation of the situation by this guy on an emotional level was orchestrated and overshadowed another humanitarian crisis? Yes. Are there serious questions to be raised about why there wasn't a long term strategy / plan in place for the withdrawal of foreign troops and how this might destabilise the country (even if it wasn't as fast and as serious as has played out) by the charity concerned? Yes I think there is - there are plenty of signs that there would be a roll back to a more conservative control of the country for some time. This is a military guy who in theory should know and understand beaucracy, logistics and how situations can detoriate incredibly fast - he's not a pencil pusher with no practical experience of difficult circumstances. He grossly underestimated the situation. In going to the press in the way he did, he knew damn well he was opening himself up to scrutiny. Quite rightly too. And yes the is massive political fallout from the actions of this man, so he should come under attention and be examined - if only to prevent farces in a similar fashion in future.

Blame does lie with the government in no small part.

Someone posted that:
Because the alternative (the government can’t stand up to animal lovers and comedians on Twitter) is terrifying.

And unfortunately thats where I think this government is - it is a popularist government who have pandered to public opinion. Its got elected off the back of several votes which were entirely about that - often in areas which the public have little to know knowledge about and have preconcieved ideas which are completely at odds with reality and aren't practically achieveable even with the best will in the world. We have a government in which the circle around the PM have frequently used their position to get their own personal agendas through - and if caught out, suddenly deny all involvement (only for it to be proved they were up to their necks in it completely). Its what happens when you develop a culture of anonymous sources and briefings against your fellow advisors and cabinet members.

This guy has openly and deliberately tried to capitalise on that. Yes he may have been desparate but he certainly knew what he was doing - it was precisely why he was doing it. He wanted to save his vanity project. The welfare of the animals throughout, I have to argue hasn't always been his priority. We have animals that were stabbed on the way to the airport because the security situation was so bad - and this guy failed to assess this accurately and then got upset that he was not assisted to the airport (the UK army didn't do this precisely because of the deteriation of the security situation). He failed to understand how long it was taking everyone else to get through check points - and then complained about it and how he should have been fast tracked because of the welfare of the animals. Never mind the reports of humans - particularly the youngest and oldest - dying of exposure in the sun whilst queuing which were all over the same media he was promoting his cause in. By his own admission, several animals died of shock during the transportation too. Again you have to seriously question, whether animal welfare was actually at the top of his list of priorities and whether an acute lack of judgment and assessing the situation accurately was in play. Something that I doubt he will ever take responsibility for.

Is this libel to raise these questions? Or even question his character?

Would a court say this was an unfair thing to say? On balance I think you'd have a hard time with that given the laws about protecting free speech and public interest arguments.

If everyone was prepared to stop posting comments about the character of Boris Johnson (amongst others) and stop making personal attacks on him on MN, then I might think they were sincere in their views.

In this situation, the idea that 'he's a member of the public' just doesn't wash. He's stepped into a deeply political row and was deeply (potentially unfairly) critical of how his case was handled.

Ultimately this is a story about a massive security issue and humanitarian crisis. It doesn't get more serious and important than that. Its not a celebrity spouting nonsense or being critised for their lifestyle choices. Its a guy getting lots of well known figures to lobby and through their weight around on a massive security issue and humanitarian crisis. And seemingly exceeding - potentially at the expense of security concerns and humaritarian concerns and animal welfare concerns.

I am sorry but I can not see this guy as a 'hero'. At best he is a naive, pushy gobshite who failed to properly assess the situation despite all the warnings from government. At worst he's a lying chancer who completely lost sight of what was going on in pursuit of his own personal agenda.

So, MN: How is one post proving another incorrect somehow against guidelines, but incorrect (and patently spreading lies) is not? is it acceptable to post all sorts of lies, provided one caveats that with "IMO" or similar?

It's all rather akin to the MP asked to leave Parliament for providing examples of the PM lying. It's okay for him/them to lie, but not okay for anyone to say, "hang on, that's a lie, and here's why"?

@RedToothBrush A vanity project? You refer to a humanitarian mission, with the aim of saving hundreds of lives a vanity project?

You then go on to post an interesting character assassination which bears no resemblance to the man. I am sorry but I can not see this guy as a 'hero'. At best he is a naive, pushy gobshite who failed to properly assess the situation despite all the warnings from government. At worst he's a lying chancer who completely lost sight of what was going on in pursuit of his own personal agenda.

Do you have any evidence for that "lying chancer" or "naive, pushy, gobsite" stuff? I know his history, and have seen nothing that fits your description here.

By his own admission, several animals died of shock during the transportation too

Five (i think) cats died whilst they were caught up in the chaos of that attack, on the afternoon/evening when they'd spent all day waiting outside the airport (after Wallace told them in the wee small hours of the same day to go there). The tear-gassing wouldn't have helped. One of the dogs was apparently stabbed by someone during that time.

I'd suggest you read nowzad's upsdates and information on this, because you appear to have read the spin and smears, and not much else.

I'm joining the other posters who have left this thread due to the continuous posting of lies and smears against Farthign and nowzad.

I had no idea that MN was willing to enable that level of misinformation.

@RedToothBrush , you have it spot on. The optics are absolutely shocking. After days of watching upsetting footage of desperate people - babies handed over wire, families standing in an open sewer, I found the news that a plane full of dogs and cats, but no people, had been flown out viscerally upsetting. It really gives the impression that a sizeable number of people considered those people as being of less value than dogs. And I like dogs - look at my username!

'I am sorry but I can not see this guy as a 'hero'. At best he is a naive, pushy gobshite who failed to properly assess the situation despite all the warnings from government. At worst he's a lying chancer who completely lost sight of what was going on in pursuit of his own personal agenda.'

Yes, 'Operation Ark' was overly ambitious in a fastly deteriorating situation. All very sad and his intentions were good but this constant blaming others by him and his twitter pals is so inappropriate. Say 'sorry, I misjudged' and move on. Let's hope the MOD and other professionals get the people remaining out.

@Janiiejones

'I am sorry but I can not see this guy as a 'hero'. At best he is a naive, pushy gobshite who failed to properly assess the situation despite all the warnings from government. At worst he's a lying chancer who completely lost sight of what was going on in pursuit of his own personal agenda.'

Yes, 'Operation Ark' was overly ambitious in a fastly deteriorating situation. All very sad and his intentions were good but this constant blaming others by him and his twitter pals is so inappropriate. Say 'sorry, I misjudged' and move on. Let's hope the MOD and other professionals get the people remaining out.

You know, if he had done this, I'd ultimately say yeah he was being honourable and committed to animal welfare but took the very difficult leadership decisions that had to be made even if its heart breaking.

Instead he ploughed on, completely tone deaf to the security concerns and warnings being made.

There was a point at which he needed to assess the situation was that dire - people already him were. Continuing in a blinkered fashion past that point was single minded to the point of obsession and had no regard for how it was impacting others - which it was - whether than be immediate or as a result of the fall out of what happened. It no longer was about animal welfare after this point, thats the trouble.

No one actually stopped to consider whether getting the animals out, was in their interests after things deteriorated. No one stopped to think whether importing a bunch of rescue animals which would need rehoming, will have an impact on unwanted animals in their country of destination following the pandemic.

No one wanted to say a flat out NO when perhaps they should have on the part of government. But no one in the animal welfare community was asking the right questions either. Instead it was an 'at all costs' very blinkered view.

It will be interesting to see what happens to the animals left by the americans. I note at this point that shipping them out, in the next few weeks, potentially has monetary value to the Taliban... who have no interest in keeping them alive in the country themselves.

A vanity project? You refer to a humanitarian mission, with the aim of saving hundreds of lives a vanity project?

Again, it just shows how desperate some people are to show Pen as a bad person. It’s very extreme and offensive to call it a vanity project. The smear campaigners are certainly outing themselves to say such things.

No one actually stopped to consider whether getting the animals out, was in their interests after things deteriorated.

The vets actually did.

It became a vanity project past the point where welfare of animals wasn't necessarily being properly and fully assessed in a massively deteriorating security situation, yes.

There came a point where he crossed the line from it being a fair and legitimate rescue mission, into one which was a massive gamble with no guarentees and could cause unnecessary suffering to the animals.

Thats what my problem is.

Its not trying to smear anyone. Its pointing out, that there is a point where his judgment became highly questionable. He was ignoring all the advice he was being given and all the warnings about how bad the situation was. He made choices contary to this because he didn't like what he was hearing.

@VeganVeg

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk guidelines.

If you are suggesting I'm anything other than an ordinary citizen who legitimately is just interested in certain subjects you are so far off the mark its funny.

I am sat at home in the NW with my 7 year old son. The front room is a mess. I don't have a job. I just know 'stuff' and its always been my interest and passion since I was a teenager.

My personal heroes are journalists who work in difficult situations, often against government. But I also understand how the truth isn't necessarily all that matters.

As it goes, MN know I'm genuine. I have no real agenda. Just huge frustrations with communications and goverance.

I sometimes wish that others gave more of a shit about why this importance because we'd not be in quite the same mess if people did.

I'm not aligned with labour, i'm not aligned with the LDs and I'm not aligned with the conservatives. Apparently this isn't possible and its not possible to be interested in politics, history, geography and the media to the extent I am and still be effectively a housewife with no connections. I find this assumption the most depressing thing of all, that its not believable.

Go figure.

Feel free to report me, if you wish.

The U.K. vet who flew out from the U.K. to Afghanistan and checked their documentation for them to come into the U.K. and enter quarantine has confirmed that the cats and dogs already have homes waiting for them.

@VeganVeg

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk guidelines.

@RedToothBrush has a background in media, and has been on MN for years, starting and contributing to some of the most insightful, intelligent and interesting political threads on here that I've seen, from Europe to the US election to human rights.

You got a problem, raise it with @MNHQ.

He physically couldn't bring the people. The Taliban wouldn't let the staff through the airport.

The dogs and cats went in the hold. They didn't take the space of any human.

Having said this. I think towards the end his judgment was questionable. He was making poor choices in a high risk ever changing environment. He nearly got them all blown up!

But it's done now. It is what it is.

Judging by the pictures of people hanging on to the outside of departing planes I'm sure they would have been more than happy to be in the hold.

@TwoLeftSocksWithHoles

Judging by the pictures of people hanging on to the outside of departing planes I'm sure they would have been more than happy to be in the hold.

Although a hold is pressurised with oxygen, it's not climate controlled.

Whilst they may have been happy, it would not be safe to do so. They also wouldn't be able to be secured in anyway shape of form just flailing about in turbulence in either too cold/warm temperatures.

It's desperate and tragic what is happening in Afghanistan I don't doubt that, but safe evacuation is key.

[quote Puppalicious]@RedToothBrush , you have it spot on. The optics are absolutely shocking. After days of watching upsetting footage of desperate people - babies handed over wire, families standing in an open sewer, I found the news that a plane full of dogs and cats, but no people, had been flown out viscerally upsetting. It really gives the impression that a sizeable number of people considered those people as being of less value than dogs. And I like dogs - look at my username![/quote]
I agree with you and @RedToothBrush as well.

And this is just looney tunes:

I’d probably feel worse if I accidentally trod on an ant cause the ant - and animals in general - are just going about their life. If a child ran in front of my car, I’d be sad it happened of course, but I don’t deem it a bigger loss. A child could grow up to be a bad person we all wish didn’t exist…you can’t say that about an ant! Animals hold an innocence that no human ever can.

What an argument.

twitter.com/jan_leeming/status/1432307126886674432?s=21

One of the things i find more frustrating about politics atm is this black and white stuff.

Stuff like you can't initially have thought good for this guy, but then start to think as the dynamics of the situation change that nope its no longer a good thing and to counter that think that the government have made a total hash of Afghanistan but at the end were being unfairly subjected to a load of bullshit which failed to acknowledge the sheer desperate nature of the situation and how it was slipping beyond where the government could/should have done more.

I think this whole case is indicative of the current government's inward looking nature which is focused on popularism and a general inability to deal with international issues, cooperation and crisis. They just lack the understanding of it and are somewhat corrupt and full of cronyism domestically which means they aren't putting people with appropriate skills in certain roles. Ironically its cronyism that Pen sort to exploit. And I think its kind of backfired for all concerned parties in practice.

It has to be said that Raab as foreign secretary is so far out of his depth its not funny. He was over promoted because he had the right ideological beliefs. I don't think he will survive a reshuffle. Wallace ended up taking on a pile of Foreign Office / Home Office roles that hadnt been correctly managed for months and had to get the army to carry out many of these tasks on a very short time frame. Thats where a lot of problems have arisen. The Department of Defence and army were left with an impossible mess to make the best of and manage due to beaucratic and political mismanagement. And then have got blamed for a lot of the issues of the withdrawal itself.

This government on the whole really need to get grip on practical stuff rather than playing up to social media demands.

I was never in favour of going into Afghanistan or Iraq. The history on this isnt good and we've never learnt lessons we should have. Its less of a military thing - we've succeeded repeatedly on that score. Its the political failure thats always been our downfall in this area of the world.