Should private schools be abolished?

[JoshLymanIsHotterThanSam]

Link.

I found this an interesting article. I did not realise that we now have one of the worst social mobility records in developed countries. I find this concerning. I am a fan of the grammar school system having been educated in one myself and having a DC who attends one. I have little experience of private schools though. If I'm honest if I had the money I wouldn't hesitate to use a private school, but that is down to the fact that I realise that it gives a leg up to the students attending, however I realise that this should not be the case.

Should we abolish private schools in the interest of fairness?

@Myothercarisalsoshit

But let’s be honest, this is mn and we read a huge amount from teachers telling us pushy parents are the worst part of their job Big difference between being supportive and being an arsehole. But you knew that, didn't you?

I’m clearly not as astute as you, please, enlighten me?

Our DC go to a private secondary school in a grammar area. For that reason, I know lots of parents much wealthier than us who have chosen to send their kids to grammar schools even though they could easily afford private education. Where do you think the money they have 'saved' goes? It gets spent on nice lifestyles (lovely holidays, ski trips, lots of extra curricular activities to 'make up' for any perceived shortfall in the child's school provision), private tutoring, and massive houses and savings - which will eventually all be passed down in inheritance. In fact, parents will tell you how happy they are to be able to increase their children's inheritance because they don't 'need' to send them to private school. If you abolish private schools, you would simply increase the number of parents doing the same. The inherited advantage would still be passed on, just in a different way.

Nope. No teaching for me. I'm on my holidays...

Charitable status should be revoked. I'm not one for banning things really, even if I think they are shit.

@DismantledKing

Yes they should. Literally buying privilege.

Exactly this.

There's a misconception that private schools are all 1) selective and 2) full of bright academic kids. Not necessarily, in my experience. They are just as much for kids who are dyslexic or have SEN; the parents see them struggling and needing extra help so decide to go private where there are smaller class sizes etc.

Our DC go to a private secondary school in a grammar area. For that reason, I know lots of parents much wealthier than us who have chosen to send their kids to grammar schools even though they could easily afford private education. Where do you think the money they have 'saved' goes? It gets spent on nice lifestyles (lovely holidays, ski trips, lots of extra curricular activities to 'make up' for any perceived shortfall in the child's school provision), private tutoring, and massive houses and savings - which will eventually all be passed down in inheritance. In fact, parents will tell you how happy they are to be able to increase their children's inheritance because they don't 'need' to send them to private school. If you abolish private schools, you would simply increase the number of parents doing the same. The inherited advantage would still be passed on, just in a different way.

Exactly. And on top of that they're taking up the place of a kid who doesn't have the option of affording private.

@mustlovegin

What's wrong with wanting to give your children a 'leg up' as you say?

I was waiting for somebody to chime in with this.

It all sounds very heroic and devoted to one’s children, doesn’t it? Until you’re on the business end of someone else ‘giving their kids a leg up’.

Tell me, if your daughter wanted to work in investment banking, and applied for an internship, and didn’t get it because the person recruiting interns had given their own children, or the children of an old school friend, a ‘leg up’, would you be happy?

How about if your son wanted to be an actor, and couldn’t get an audition because people in the business wanted to give their own family and friends a ‘leg up’? That would be OK with you, would it?

Of course it wouldn’t. Buying privilege works both ways. By abolishing private schools, you get rid of an egregious example of it.

Education or attitude to education, stimulation from baby age, the amount of words a child hears, nurturing..

Parents are divisive that's where it starts.

@haaaahoooo

Our DC go to a private secondary school in a grammar area. For that reason, I know lots of parents much wealthier than us who have chosen to send their kids to grammar schools even though they could easily afford private education. Where do you think the money they have 'saved' goes? It gets spent on nice lifestyles (lovely holidays, ski trips, lots of extra curricular activities to 'make up' for any perceived shortfall in the child's school provision), private tutoring, and massive houses and savings - which will eventually all be passed down in inheritance. In fact, parents will tell you how happy they are to be able to increase their children's inheritance because they don't 'need' to send them to private school. If you abolish private schools, you would simply increase the number of parents doing the same. The inherited advantage would still be passed on, just in a different way.

That’s a great argument for increasing inheritance tax.

No.

State schools should be equally resourced.

We should abolish private schools and grammar schools.

Bollocks! No.

You could say the same for private healthcare. You get what you pay for.

Really? Most private senior schools I know of are selective.

Outside if the south there are many private secondaries which aren't really selective. They are on paper and often have a test to get in, but reality is they aren't super selective like grammar schools are. Many have a wide range of students there when it comes to academia - they'll have a good amount of straight As but you'll also have your more 'average' student getting grade 4s and 5s. Granted, in many you won't find many, if any, of the pupils getting 1s - 3s.

Yes

I think there’s also a misconception that private school kids have it easy. I went to state, my kids go to private. They are working ENDLESSLY, and from a much younger age as from Y5 they start preparing for the 11+. I don’t know a single private school kid with straight A’s who hasn’t worked their socks off for them, they deserve what they get. I think it’s pretty sad as a country If we become so unaspirational that the only way we can been seen to be doing better is to make the top performers do worse, bring them down to everyone else’s level. No thank you. We need fo raise the underperforming schools UP, not bring the outperforming school down.

Also where does it stop. You’d have to abolish anything selective. CofE schools outperform others, is that fair?? They also massively push up house prices around them. Grammar schools are another, you think every kid that goes hasn’t been worked or tutored within an inch of their life??

Lastly, where would they all go, and how would you stop them taking up the “academic” bandwidth in other schools through tutoring or work ethic?

Unfortunately many dc with sen, have undisclosed sen, some only get diagnosed at the end of their education journey when it's too late, their self esteem is smashed.

Many people in prisons have low literacy ability.

Teachers are not trained to spot sen, many Senco also know little about sen (so how on earth they are supposed to then Co ordinate help I don't know!!)

So many dc, almost like mine fall through the cracks and mine only needs quite light support really, it's astonishing that it wasn't given or triggered by the school.
But what about other dc like mine who have no school or parental help to implement small tweaks to change their educational journey?

They go on existing outside the education they are offered because they are locked out.

Targeting this, catching dc like mine, those who need way more help than mine, is a far better project /focus /stick to beat, thing to push for that would make a huge impact to our society than going on about private schools!!

I think it’s pretty sad as a country If we become so unaspirational that the only way we can been seen to be doing better is to make the top performers do worse, bring them down to everyone else’s level. No thank you. We need fo raise the underperforming schools UP, not bring the outperforming school down.
Unaspirational? Really? Fucking hell the cognitive dissonance on this thread is astounding. The 'top performers' had bloody well better be 'top' with the small classes and extra resources and money spent on them. 'Outperforming'? I wonder why.

Our sink estate junior school has sent at least one kid to grammar school in the 2 years following my boy getting his place, because they've finally cottoned on to the fact that they can encourage the parents of the bright kids to try the entrance test.

One child out of how many?
What percentage do these children make each year?

Grammar schools have NEVER provided a fair playing field even when there were more of them.

If you want a fist system it needs to be equal for all surely?

Why do only the ones who's parents (and to a smaller extent their school) are willing and able to push for grammar get to go there when the ones who are naturally bright but have parents who don't know/don't care/don't understand the system or have the time and effort to push for it and to get them through the entry system miss out?

Grammar schools are divisive.
Private schools are divisive.
Church/religious schools are divisive.
Private tutoring (and things like Kumon) is divisive.

So should be treated the same if you truly want a more equal and fair system for ALL children. It should surely just be one system - a comprehensive system - for all children in all areas.

And that's before we consider that there are a lot private schools that are a fabulous educational opportunity for some children with varying needs. Do you want to include banning those schools too? Do those children lose their chance to reach their potentials too? The number of send schools in the state system is reducing yearly.

I used to teach in a state school very near to one of the most prestigious (and expensive) private schools in the country. We had a fair number of kids (usually with ASD or dyslexia or some condition that might be considered vaguely challenging) who ended up shifting from them to us because the quality of teaching was poor.

Private schools cement privilege. It's baked into the very notion. If you pay extra for something you expect results, you expect gloss, you expect success. They are designed to produce ambitious, successful people no matter what and every pupil is expected to fit that model no matter what.

I don't see how you can abolish them but there is no doubt that private education by its very nature prevents the wealthy ever experiencing things from the perspective of those less fortunate. Johnson et al have no idea what state education is like. Their kids don't go, their pals didn't go, they didn't go. It's ridiculous that they are in charge of it.

The problem is though that you are never, ever going to eradicate 'unfairness' in education - for the simple reason that DC with parents who have money/time/intelligence/drive/competitive desire to achieve/resources are always going to have an advantage.

If you're going to abolish the private system then you would also need to abolish

• grammar schools (let's face it, they are not as they were originally intended - the vast majority are full of rich and/or middle class DC whose parents have pushed and tutored and relentlessly tiger parented them to get them in - I suspect there are very, very few DC of lower income families who manage to get there on ability and merit alone)

• faith schools (vast majority are full of rich and/or middle class DC whose parents have attended church and/or pretended to be of a certain faith to get the religious leader to sign the appropriate form - again, suspect there are comparatively few DC there on genuine religious affiliation alone)

• tutoring (again, there will be a huge number of rich and/or middle class DC whose parents will push and pay and do whatever they can to give their DC an advantage

• catchment areas (rich and/or middle class parents will do what the hell they can to get their DC into the 'best' schools).

Abolishing private schools is barely the tip of the iceberg because you will never stop parents doing their absolute best to benefit their DC and the more options you take away the more viciously competitive you will make the ones that remain. It's a nice idea in theory but will never work in practice.

Abraxan

Today the the all rounders miss out because the school doesn't step in like it used to in df day.

I mentioned earlier df was told by his teachers he should try that's how most dc were told.
In most primary school grammar is a dirty word so yes..

How could students with potential ever access an grammar with zero support.

Then people like you can say how unfair they are??

Hurrah for MyOtherCar; I couldn't agree more!

The biggest unfairness in education right now..

Is dc with all manner of sen not being diagnosed or supported.

No teacher training in sen, Senco who are supposed to Co ordinate help with little training, children falling through the cracks.

Most people in prison have low literacy!

Make this your cause.