Should private schools be abolished?

[JoshLymanIsHotterThanSam]

Link.

I found this an interesting article. I did not realise that we now have one of the worst social mobility records in developed countries. I find this concerning. I am a fan of the grammar school system having been educated in one myself and having a DC who attends one. I have little experience of private schools though. If I'm honest if I had the money I wouldn't hesitate to use a private school, but that is down to the fact that I realise that it gives a leg up to the students attending, however I realise that this should not be the case.

Should we abolish private schools in the interest of fairness?

This thread is quite eye opening. I though MNs was more leftie & into social mobility.

thought not though!

Yes, of course. Education continues to perpetuate inequality,.

God this is tiresome.

Most people want to fix inequality.

What you don’t do is make things shit for everyone, instead you try to make things less shit at state schools.

And if you can’t even make things less shit at the state schools, then you have no business shutting down educational opportunities for others.

No,

Fighting for dc with sen who end up in prison because they fall down cracks in the system doesn't seem to fit with the lefty view point?

Easier to target nasty private schools...

How do you make things less shit in state schools when the people in charge of them can simply buy their way out of the system?

The current government are actively against investing money in schools. They are currently being bombarded with letters from safety bodies because they won't, against advice, fork out for sprinklers in new school buildings and they will allow Grenfell-type cladding to be used in them.

@Wheretoeattweenandteen

The biggest unfairness in education right now..

Is dc with all manner of sen not being diagnosed or supported.

No teacher training in sen, Senco who are supposed to Co ordinate help with little training, children falling through the cracks.

Most people in prison have low literacy!

Make this your cause.

SENCOs are required by law to undergo Masters level training: * In September 2009 it became law for every new SENCO in a mainstream school to gain the Master's level National Award for Special Educational Needs Co-ordinator within 3 years of taking up the post. * I'm sorry about your experience but it's just not true that SENCOs don't have training. Also, adapting teaching for children with SEN is part of the Initial Teacher Training core content.

@UsedUpUsername

God this is tiresome.

Most people want to fix inequality.

What you don’t do is make things shit for everyone, instead you try to make things less shit at state schools.

And if you can’t even make things less shit at the state schools, then you have no business shutting down educational opportunities for others.

That. Ales zero sense. But then I wouldn’t expect Mn’s lower-middle-class aspirational majority to back the abolition of one of their pet fetishes.

That MAKES zero sense.

Of course not, abolishing them will make it even more unaffordable to get a property in an area with a good school catchment.

It is not as if rich people is going to accept sending their kids to underperforming schools to help them improve with their money. The will just make the best schools unavailable to those people living in the outskirts of the catchment.

Most people want to fix inequality.

I don't think people do hence why we have such inequality in this country. Income inequality in the UK is very high compared to other wealthy countries. Covid exacerbated the issue. They you have health inequality, race inequality etc...

Yes. 💯

I'm no fan of private education, but I would sooner get rid of grammar schools than private. At least private schools don't pretend to be equitable.

Selection in the state system at the age of 11 is wrong. And unnecessary.

I would prefer to see proper investment in comprehensive schools that cater well to the needs of all children.

Omg yes, immediately.

They learn they are better than everyone else - Michael Rosen

They pay for an education
that teaches them that they are
better than everyone else.
They live in enclaves
that separate them off from
everyone else.
They buy health treatment
so that they don't have to be
in waiting rooms and hospitals
with everyone else.
They are driven about in cars
so that they don't have to travel
with everyone else.
They arrive in Parliament
to rule over
everyone else.
They sit in rows baying and jeering
at PMQs
at the letters sent in by
everyone else.
They sit in rows baying and jeering
at PMQs
at the kinds of clothes worn
by everyone else.

In theory, yes. Private schools should not exist. They are incredibly unfair, for a while load of reasons.
However, if they are abolished it won't magically become equal. Other forms of inequality will be exacerbated. For instance, school catchment areas are already manipulated- this will just happen more, as more affluent people buy houses as close as possible to the most desirable state schools driving up house prices in those areas to unaffordable levels. Affluent parents would have their children tutored from early childhood to get them into grammar schools (another major spurce of social injustice). State schools would struggle to accept the extra pupils and each pupils would have less funding from the government (or the government would have to magically find extra millions of pounds somehow). Tutoring would be even more rife than it already is. What about private religious or SEN schools? Would they be allowed to exist? There are a whole lot of reasons why abolishing private schools, while a lovely idea, is something that would have very difficult repercussions.

Yes and no. Don't shoot me.

It seems obvious to me that instead of criticising private schools for being ‘better’ we should be outraged that state schools are worse. They need more money and a change in attitude (not least from parents). Zero tolerance on misbehaviour + a curriculum that supports those that are likely to have practical jobs as well as the academics. If state schools were good enough private schools would start to close (as has happened with prep school as primaries have got better. Catchment lotteries are not practical (esp in rural areas).

In an ideal world, yes. But it would take huge social upheaval which will never happen.

Just following on from @surreygirl1987, yes private schools are unfair but the again but so is reading bedtime stories to children (not all parents do it), so are trips and holidays, 3 meals a day, stable home etc

All that would happen if private schools were abolished would be that places at good state schools would go to the children of wealthier parents buying houses or flats in the catchment area. Wealthy parents would pay for private tutoring or evening crammer schools like in Korea or private sports camps / drama / music lessons etc.

The unfair advantage children of wealthier parents have over children of poorer would remain or even get worse, all that would happen is that this unfair advantage gets repackaged in a different form.

Just following on from @surreygirl1987, yes private schools are unfair but the again but so is reading bedtime stories to children (not all parents do it), so are trips and holidays, 3 meals a day, stable home etc
Really? You seriously believe that these things are equivalent? Involved parenting is the same as buying your child the enormous societal privalege that comes with a private education? Absolute nonsense!
FWIW here is my proposal:
All private & grammar schools taken back under state control.
SEN schools allowed to continue as they are but not fee paying.
Admissions to be allocated - perhaps by splitting areas into zones.
Admission by ballot.
There would be no catchments so no problem with house prices and no gaming the system.
Totally fair. Totally transparent. And it would be in the government's interest to equalise educational opportunity across all schools. Former private schools with good sporting facilities could be used as a resource for children in their zone, in zones where these facilties don't exist, purpose built ones should be developed.

Almost every single successful person has been to private school, it is the single most defining feature in a person's career. I'd love it if they were abolished.

but are you not comparing apples and oranges?
private school select a higher number of easy to teach learners.
state schools have no say on the abilities of their students, a portion of which will never achieve even a baseline level of education due to a variety of SEN's.
so the results will be skewed simply by the different intake. making the whole point of social mobility and equality pointless.

The poor funding of state schools is a choice, there’s no reason it needs to be so and no reason the facilities couldn’t be more on a parr with private. I’m sure a lot of people paying exorbitant school fees would then transfer. It’s not really the private schools but the class system that holds people back anyway. Or do you think that the exceptionally bright kids with scholarships at the top public schools have prospects in line with the upper classes? Are they the ones who make it as politicians and judges?
In my opinion state funded selective schools are even worse than public schools because the state is funding some children to have better resource and a superior education. They are not demographically diverse in the slightest. The vast majority are tutored (either professionally or by parents with the time and educational attainment to do so), have parents able to afford housing within catchment and/or able to pay for transport to the school. At least public schools are funded directly by the families and not by the parents of children unable to access them.
I agree that the German system sounds better than ours, we prize academic achievement far too much when practical skills are just as needed by society. Being able (and wanting) to work hard and achieve is the key to social mobility.

Name your favourite actress, actor, musician, mp, ceo of your favourite company. They've all been to private school, I bet.

I’m on the fence with this but probably mite on the side if scrapping them.

What I do think should be absolutely scrapped, is tuition hot housing for two years with a private tutor, to pass the test --and take away a place from a more academically able child from a poorer background--