Should private schools be abolished?

[JoshLymanIsHotterThanSam]

Link.

I found this an interesting article. I did not realise that we now have one of the worst social mobility records in developed countries. I find this concerning. I am a fan of the grammar school system having been educated in one myself and having a DC who attends one. I have little experience of private schools though. If I'm honest if I had the money I wouldn't hesitate to use a private school, but that is down to the fact that I realise that it gives a leg up to the students attending, however I realise that this should not be the case.

Should we abolish private schools in the interest of fairness?

@mustlovegin

What's wrong with wanting to give your children a 'leg up' as you say?

Absolutely nothing. Can’t understand parents who don’t want to do the best for their kids.

Every child has access to state education in the UK. Teachers and schools can do so much but the main role models are the parents amd adults in the household. Banishing private schools won’t change that.

@newnortherner111

I would disqualify any person who went to private school from being Prime Minister or being in the cabinet. That would be enough for me.

Lovely bit of discrimination there

Yes. Then all schools would improve.

No

The best state schools are already out of reach to those to many of more modest means. House prices in the catchment areas can be ridiculous. Take out the private sector and this will only be exacerbated.

Yes for a variety of reasons. There's a great book called "Engines of Privilege: Britain's Private School Problem" that I very much recommend. I was state educated but have taught at both.

No, that’s grammar schools. Private take whoever pays the fees.

Really? Most private senior schools I know of are selective.

It’s a bit like saying that if all world leaders’ children had to fight on the front line then there’d be far fewer wars. If everyone’s children had to attend state school, there’s be far fewer inadequate State schools. It’s not workable, of course, but the moral principle is there.

*So children who have parents with money to pay for tutors and books, or parents with time to spend sitting and coaching them and focusing in education still get to go to grammar and get a 'better' education then?

And why is that fair?

The old grammar and secondary modern/technical college system was scrapped for a reason.

Lots of areas in the country don't have grammar schools anyway. So then what?

If you want to scrap private schools because they create an unequal system then I'm afraid you also need to scrap all the schools that are selective surely?

And probably tutoring too.*

If, and I understand its a big if, the grammar school system was done properly and accessible for all it would work. In an ideal world it would be an untutorable test but we all know that's not possible. The problem with the grammar schools in Birmingham is the vast majority of parents in the state schools don't even attempt to enter their children for the entry test. My kids went/go to a sink estate junior school. My DS was the first kid from the school to attend a grammar....now I'm damned sure that he wasn't the only kid to ever attend that school that was bright enough for a grammar place - so why?

Because its been marketed as for the elite. That fucking bothers me because grammar schools shouldn't be for the elite.

I am aware of the problems and flaws grammar schools pose, I still don't think they should be scrapped, there needs to be reform for sure.

Our sink estate junior school has sent at least one kid to grammar school in the 2 years following my boy getting his place, because they've finally cottoned on to the fact that they can encourage the parents of the bright kids to try the entrance test.

Private schools breed snobbery, and I'd like to abolish snobbery

Dancealittleclosertome how will you go about abolishing snobbery?
Maybe use the former East Germany’s methods of secret surveillance and bugging houses to flush out snobs?

No. It's good to have more than one type of education, whether you use it or not. Education is about more than the whim of the government of the day. Besides, it would be completely impractical to nationalise all the private assets and it would leave the anomalies of state funded religious schools and grammar schools (which still exist in Kent because constituents repeatedly told their MPs they did not want them abolished -- I looked it up in Hansard once. No doubt some voters felt similarly elsewhere but were not listened to).

It's hardly surprising there aren't many DC on FSM at Kent grammars when you need to a) know it's an option b) enter your DC in year 5 c) do practice papers d) get to the exam and e) somehow figure all this out when state primaries aren't allowed to prepare for 11+ and some are actively prejudiced against grammars. You can't lay it all at the door of the grammars, which are bursting at the seams and not allowed to expand (except in some very limited circumstances).

Also, Finland is a ridiculous comparator for the UK. It's got a tiny population, a quite different economy and is much more culturally homogeneous.

What I would do is pour resources into SEN. That would help a lot of DC and reduce the need for the alternative paid for SEN system aka middle ranking independents.

As others have said, no need to abolish anything. Fund state schools properly. Fund teachers properly. Stop messing around with performance measures and idiotic policies. Make teaching a profession people respect and want to join and not leave due to stress and shit pay. Job done.

Once you've gone down the private way for primary you should not be able to game the system and send your kids to state grammar. Why should children from more affluent back grounds who've been prepped for the 11 plus by their private school take places away from their state schooled peers ? Kind of makes the whole principle of grammar schools improving social mobility a bit redundant..

Where do you draw the line then? Prohibit tutoring? How about extra curricular activities? Trips to museums and art galleries? Ban helping children with homework/revision? Impose a maximum number of books in each house? Stop parents from reading stories and doing flashcards? And don't get me started on the practical problems with catchment lotteries...

I’d rather there were not tiered govt funded schools and grammar schools were abolished.

@Effybriest

Once you've gone down the private way for primary you should not be able to game the system and send your kids to state grammar. Why should children from more affluent back grounds who've been prepped for the 11 plus by their private school take places away from their state schooled peers ? Kind of makes the whole principle of grammar schools improving social mobility a bit redundant..

I agree with this sentiment.

State schools are very limited and can only do so much also many suffer from mixed aims and abilities.

I have a dd with sen and our local non selective private school is great for those with sen. I can't afford too but I'd send her there in a shot if I could.
. We need more variety in schools not less.

I had one bright dc in an extremely good local comp but even then there was a strange marking system, issues with behavior, lots of issues over covid... Lack of pastoral care so I'm moving to grammar.

As pp said it's home influence, need tighter links to home when dc struggle need more help for dc who have sen... Non of these things improve by closing down private schools it's such an odd way of looking at things!

Ruin the most successful sector!

Yep.

Oh, don't abolish the private schools, but require them to have locally-approved rules for entrance (ie so they are actually local schools), a maximum fee equivalent to the amount paid per child in local state schools, and full bursaries for all that can't pay.

Where we live, lots of families that would in the past have sent their children private at secondary have decided to commit to the state sector, and actually it has made a difference to those schools. Financially and also in terms of making them (more) genuinely comprehensive.

In ye old days, dc who were grammar potential were spotted by teachers and told. They were also assisted like df who was told he should definitely try but needed to work on his maths.

His parents had no interest in education at all and gave him zero support help and were agaisnt him doing it.

The school helped him. That's their job and that's what they did.
. Unfortunately this support was actively removed so I often wonder how students like df would possibly access a grammer with literally no one to even tell him about the test... Then that if course fits the narrative that grammar offers no social mobility...

Grammar schools should be the first to go. Then state funded religious schools. So divisive.

Only if we also abolish private tutors, cramming courses, paid online learning and text book guides.

Where we live, lots of families that would in the past have sent their children private at secondary have decided to commit to the state sector, and actually it has made a difference to those schools. Financially and also in terms of making them (more) genuinely comprehensive

Financially how??

@Wheretoeattweenandteen

*

In ye old days, dc who were grammar potential were spotted by teachers and told. They were also assisted like df who was told he should definitely try but needed to work on his maths.

His parents had no interest in education at all and gave him zero support help and were agaisnt him doing it.

The school helped him. That's their job and that's what they did.
. Unfortunately this support was actively removed so I often wonder how students like df would possibly access a grammer with literally no one to even tell him about the test... Then that if course fits the narrative that grammar offers no social mobility...

I agree. Education starts at home and without someone pushing you a lot of children who are very able would not get on. But let’s be honest, this is mn and we read a huge amount from teachers telling us pushy parents are the worst part of their job

But let’s be honest, this is mn and we read a huge amount from teachers telling us pushy parents are the worst part of their job
Big difference between being supportive and being an arsehole. But you knew that, didn't you?