Should private schools be abolished?

[JoshLymanIsHotterThanSam]

Link.

I found this an interesting article. I did not realise that we now have one of the worst social mobility records in developed countries. I find this concerning. I am a fan of the grammar school system having been educated in one myself and having a DC who attends one. I have little experience of private schools though. If I'm honest if I had the money I wouldn't hesitate to use a private school, but that is down to the fact that I realise that it gives a leg up to the students attending, however I realise that this should not be the case.

Should we abolish private schools in the interest of fairness?

We have bad social mobility for many reasons, but I think those that entrench privilege the most are inherited wealth, and our series of right wing capitalist governments. Private schools do contribute to the networks of power and influence that most cannot access but if our state school provision was more consistent, we would see more of those children at top universities levelling that playing field too.
In a nutshell, I think we have bigger issues to address when it comes to our lack of social mobility.

I don't know tbh. Something has gone wrong somewhere, our education isn't as good as other countries & social mobility is shocking. For today's youths whether their parents own a home & can help them will be more important than what job they do which is ridiculous.

No I don't think them being abolished would really make a difference. People who can afford private school can probably afford to live the most expensive parts of their town/ city and they would then send their dc to their local school (which is probably outstanding anyway) filled with other wealthy dc, which would then push out access to those schools for other less families who perhaps live 500m further from the school. Wealthy people would probably also donate money to those schools so they would become little bubbles of wealth.

Improving State Schools won't get rid of Private schools though. It may reduce the number a little - but people will always pay for better, even if they gap isn't so big.

No. I don't think it's schooling that's preventing social mobility. I think it's much more to do with culture, parenting and the benefits trap.

But education helps with educating to break the cycle?

@KeflavikAirport

Yes. Send all the rich kids to state school, and suddenly they will be magically properly funded. The fact that Eton et al have charitable status is frankly a massive piss take.

I completely agree with this. All children should have the opportunity to go to a good, properly funded school, where they receive a proper education. The standard of your education shouldn’t be decided on by how much money your parents have. We can’t really afford a tutor for dd, but have had to get one because the standard of maths teaching at her school is so poor. That shouldn’t be the case, she should be being educated to pass her maths gcse by her school teachers and I really feel for those in her class whose parents can not afford a tutor as a maths gcse is pretty critical to your future success.

Yes.

Abolish private schools and grammar schools.

It breeds separation and inequality; a tiered education system maintains a tiered society.

If all schools were state schools, richer people would be personally invested in making sure state schools were good.

If all schools were state schools, richer people would be personally invested in making sure state schools were good

No they wouldn't. They'd employ tutors, and eventually they would form little consortia which would in turn become mini independent schools, which would then mushroom into bigger independent schools. You can't take choice away from people, however hard you try.

The standard of your education shouldn’t be decided on by how much money your parents have.

I do agree with this.

I do kinda agree that if Boris's pals' kids were at their local comp then a magic money tree would be found. But if you look at somewhere like Edinburgh where 25% of DCs at secondary age are at private, the question really has to be where would they all go?

I also don't agree with the charitable status, but if that was removed fees would go up and it would be the parents who are scrimping and saving that would be priced out of private, so the elite would still have access.

But if we were starting again from scratch? No private, no grammar and no religious schools. I just don't know how you get to that state without damaging the children already in the system.

@countrytown

The standard of your education shouldn’t be decided on by how much money your parents have.

I do agree with this.

In an ideal and fair world, however, none of us live there

You can't criticise private schools and use grammars 😂 That's peak hypocrisy. You have given your child a leg up by going through the entry process.

Grammar schools were designed to improve social mobility but they are glorified private schools with no fees now. The children are there because their parents probably tutored them (familiarization at home is a form of tutoring) and went to the trouble of attending the test date out of school etc

Why do we have grammar schools anyway? Why wouldn't we have schools for the year 6s who leave primary unable to read instead ? The kids who probably can't achieve qualifications so struggle to even apply for minimum wage jobs that require English and Maths ?

This isn't some sort of jealousy. My kids went to comprehensives rather than grammars over the border and achieved the grades for top unis. But I can't help but wonder what happens to those kids who can't get any qualifications. It's not like the past when people would take a chance because the computer will automatically say no when you submit an application without the basics.

I admit that my kids at comprehensives went to great ones because I can afford to live in catchment. House prices and catchment areas are also a financial way of buying an advantage.

Looking at the state of the government it's not exactly an advert for private schools.

@Brokensunflower

No. I don't think it's schooling that's preventing social mobility. I think it's much more to do with culture, parenting and the benefits trap.

I think the cycle of being in benefits passing through generations and that in this country is normalised to be blended families and not have stable family backgrounds is far more to do with it.

Nothing to do with jobs for the old boys then? Just those feckless people on benefits that are the problem

I have twins who both went to different grammar schools but I pulled my daughter out of her grammar school as it was an exam sweat shop. She is now is a lovely nurturing private school which suits her better.
If I am honest, I think she would have got a better education going to her brother's grammar or staying at her original grammar - but her current private school suits her mental health better and I would rather she be happy that get the best grades.

@OldScrappyAndHungry

Finland has no private schools and an infinitely better education system.

Sure, but those two things are not necessarily connected. It certainly wouldn’t be like that in the U.K. Social mobility in the U.K. isn’t just about the school you attend, it’s all about who you are and who you know, and those things wouldn’t go away just because independent schools were abolished. All that would happen is there’d be state schools and there be state schools. For instance, does anyone really believe that the schools Blair’s and Gove’s kids went to: The London Oratory and The Grey Coat Hospital are just your average run of the mill state school that anyone has an equal chance of getting in to? Of course they’re not. And selection by academic achievement in U.K. grammar schools is the least of the issues for state schools, by far worse is selection by religion and the very real (at all ‘comprehensive’ state schools) selection by postcode. Setting aside the fact that the state system would have to be so overhauled and pumped full of money (that no one will want their taxes increased for) to incorporate the independent school students that it would never happen, I personally couldn’t care less if they were abolished. But please don’t anyone be mistaken in their beliefs that it change a single thing in terms of social mobility.

I am inclined to agree that if all the kids of the people in power had no choice but to attend a local state school then funding would magically appear.

Except that wouldn’t happen as you can’t take away choice & force anyone to state educate their children. What would happen is Eton et al would relocate to somewhere like Switzerland & the children of those in power would be sent there. Alternatively, they could pay for the best tutors / facilities / extra curriculars that money can buy & ‘home’ school their children.

If anything, abolishing private schools could actually backfire & further decrease social mobility / widen the gap as the children who would be forced into the state system would be the ones who can’t really afford it anyway i.e. those with parents who are scrimping, saving & sacrificing to just about afford the fees.

It's a ludicrous idea unless you abolish everything else that gives people an advantage or a leg-up such as: extra-curricular activities, tutoring, enough family money for holidays and cultural capital, internships, parents giving house deposits or paying for uni, private healthcare, private dentistry....I could go on. There are many many things that contribute to an unequal society which is unfortunate but true. Abolishing private schools won't fix anything.

No

@KeflavikAirport

Yes. Send all the rich kids to state school, and suddenly they will be magically properly funded. The fact that Eton et al have charitable status is frankly a massive piss take.

Yes…as above

If all schools were state schools, richer people would be personally invested in making sure state schools were good

This is such a tired old trope

Do you really think state schools would change things to suit certain rich parents?

Plenty of parents at state school wanted full days of online education during the lockdown and it didn't happen.

Parents have no say at state school at the moment and I am sure there are plenty of very well off people that use them.

I want a school to be run by an excellent leadership team and a committed board of governors, not rich parents (and I'm at private school!)

Things private school parents want aren't necessarily what the majority of parents want.

Long days, compulsory sport, zero tolerance for bad behaviour, strict uniform (in most cases), academic pressure. All things posters on Mumsnet often moan about.

No.

Independent schools are a valuable resource for SEN children as some really thrive due to having smaller classes but still need a mainstream curriculum which isn’t available at many special schools. Sometimes the parents pay the fees, sometimes (in my sons case) the LA pay.

You are fortunate to be living in an area that has retained its grammar schools, Where I live, they were all abolished.
The education system is an absolute mess.

No grammars here either.