Should private schools be abolished?

[JoshLymanIsHotterThanSam]

Link.

I found this an interesting article. I did not realise that we now have one of the worst social mobility records in developed countries. I find this concerning. I am a fan of the grammar school system having been educated in one myself and having a DC who attends one. I have little experience of private schools though. If I'm honest if I had the money I wouldn't hesitate to use a private school, but that is down to the fact that I realise that it gives a leg up to the students attending, however I realise that this should not be the case.

Should we abolish private schools in the interest of fairness?

I would be very much in favour of a Finnish system, though I think some English parents would find it hard to adjust. There is no teacher accountability in Finland. There are no standardised tests. All grades are teacher assessed, aside from an optional national exam at the end. Teachers are highly respected in Finnish society. It is very difficult to secure a teaching position there. Parents do not question teachers. There is very little homework.
English culture would not allow for many of these key attributes that make the system so successful.

[quote MasterGland]@peaseblossum22. My current indie has more holidays (extra 6 weeks a year) but an extra hour on the school day. The extra holidays equate to 180 school hours "missed". The extra hour a day equates to an additional 165 school hours across the year. Time spent in school is therefore roughly the same as my previous outstanding comp. The allocation of that time to diffferent subjects and activities is very different between the two schools.[/quote]
I am not sure if your point. It still comes down to funding as I said in my earlier post.

On the hours though, our local secondary starts at 9.15 and finishes at 2.45, admittedly with very short breaks . The local independent starts at 8.40 and finishes at 4.20 but the school is open from 7.30am until 6.30pm, believe it or there are children who arrive for sport clubs or extra subject clinics at that time of the morning .

I have also worked in finance In the state sector and we simply could not have funded that and also parents could not afford to get their children to school outside the standard hours .

@peaseblossum22 my point was that the state and indie kids I teach/taught are spending roughly the same number of hours in school. But the indie kids have more sport/games and the state kids had more core teaching time. If you throw more money at schools, they are still going to have to prioritise sone things over others . You can't just keep extending the school day to encompass everything.
The early open and start times at my indie are for wraparound care (which is an additional cost). I don't know what others do with this time, however.

Hmm:
DS had to be in at 8.30am and school finished at 4pm. The local state started at 8am and finished at 2pm.

After 4pm there were inevitably sports practices or matches and he didn't come home until after 6pm often. School provided exceptional sports training with former professional sportsmen on the sports staff. Similarly music and drama.

I think it's pretty hypocritical to suggest banning private schools whilst taking advantage of a grammar school system…

The long holidays that private school have comes form the time when many children would only see their families twice a year as they were ruling over the empire

The extra activities is a bonus because well the schools can afford to do this all schools should offer this

But there is always sports groups children can join that are not school run (but difficult for working parents and many can’t afford them)

@RosesAndHellebores

I also disagree with the poster whonsaid independent schools aren't selective and anyone can go if they can pay. That is absolutely not the case with the London Day Schools:

St Paul's
KCS
Westminster
Alleyns
Lady Eleanor Holles
SPGS
WHS
PHS

Their intake is beyond par with the old top 20% who went to grammar school. So there you have the double whammy of privileged and clever.

There are approx 2500 private schools in the UK, of which a very small number, are selective.

@MasterGland

I would be very much in favour of a Finnish system, though I think some English parents would find it hard to adjust. There is no teacher accountability in Finland. There are no standardised tests. All grades are teacher assessed, aside from an optional national exam at the end. Teachers are highly respected in Finnish society. It is very difficult to secure a teaching position there. Parents do not question teachers. There is very little homework. English culture would not allow for many of these key attributes that make the system so successful.

Are you also in favour of paying 50% tax?

I am more than happy for tax increases ACROSS THE BOARD in this country but I can't imagine it would be a vote winner from any party.

but Gove was the first education secretary to send his kids to state school, in 2014

KeflavicAirport Does that include Labour education secretaries or just Tory ones?

I would happily pay 50% tax IF it guaranteed a welfare, health and education system like Finland.

Of course increases in tax won’t be a vote winner for the majority it would be a struggle (maybe not on MN)

The increase in tax won’t just see your wage decrease it will increase the costs of what we buy

@bryonyshcmyony yes, I would pay 50% tax to achieve a state like Finland. But it won't work because of our culture, which you can't just change overnight. There is high support for welfare in Finland and other similar countries such as Denmark. This is not the case in England.

@EmmaGrundyForPM

I would happily pay 50% tax IF it guaranteed a welfare, health and education system like Finland.

And yet Finland's schools are being slowly divided into haves and have nots, as wealthy white parents choose schools with low numbers of immigrants in poor areas.

Ed Balls children were state educated although his predecessor Ruth Kelly had to stand down for sending one of her children to an independent dyslexia specialist school.

Frankly though I’m not sure this is a great route to take , our current education secretary is hardly a brilliant advert for the state education system

Contrary to popular myth Finland does have private schools but they are state subsidised . They educate about 3% of children

Sorry yes was not clear, first Tory education secretary.

@SpaceBethSmith

Private schools are a self fulfilling prophecy. They only take smart kids so they get the highest grades.

Not all

Ours takes a mix of v clever and average. The average always end up with great a levels. I think in 2019 there were 7 Cs and one D in the whole cohort. No fails.

I went to a sink state school and was utterly miserable and it has shaped me, negatively.

Same.

And I'll be sending my child to St Peter's in York in 2022. I don't feel at all guilty.

Yes I was a bright kid in a shit state school. It wasn't fun.

@EmmaGrundyForPM

I would happily pay 50% tax IF it guaranteed a welfare, health and education system like Finland.

A lot of us already pay 50% tax on some of our income

I also went to a sink school. 86% of state schools are now rated as good or outstanding, however. I will say again, that the state system is not what it used to be. Like him or loathe him, Gove's reforms did drive up standards.

Of course not. Unless you abolish private healthcare and a myriad of other goods and services available to those who can pay which are arguably, unfair.
Were they to be abolished - which I believe could/would never happen for a whole host of political, ideological, legal and logistical reasons - would-be private school parents would simply spend all the money they would save on fees, buying property near the best performing schools, which there will always be. Said schools would continue to attract like minded parents with similar levels of wealth and the ability to give their children all the extracurricular activities / tuition they wanted. These schools would also attract those teachers who would previously have applied to the private sector. Parents will make generous contributions to improving facilities and resources in these schools.... etc etc. Thus - de facto private schools - paid for by the taxpayer. The main winners would be parents who've ploughed all that now freed up cash into their own property holdings.

Private Schools as opposed to Public Schools only exist because the State does not provide enough variations or alternatives to a 196O' s utopian idea of Comprehensive schooling.

This being to suggest that parents who don't buy in to the Socialist utopia of 196O's approach forwarded by Kidbrooke School have no way else to go other than Private. Public Schools however are a different entity seeking to use advantage to gain traction in society , rather than picking up the slack from the State system.

Private Schools therefore are a consequence of the destruction of the Grammar School system in the 1960s and 1970s . Personally i would double the number of Grammar Schools from the current 163 to 326 in England . This meaning Grammar Schools would equate to educating about 12% of the Secondary aged population of England.

@MasterGland

I also went to a sink school. 86% of state schools are now rated as good or outstanding, however. I will say again, that the state system is not what it used to be. Like him or loathe him, Gove's reforms did drive up standards.

Yes I did try our local state but rapidly got fed up with it, bad behaviour, no sport (lots on the website but in reality it was cancelled every week), dd had 5 maths teachers in 2 years, finished at 2.45, we lived 10 mins away by car but she had to get the bus which took an hour and dropped her on the other side of the village so she had to walk home in the rain and hide a pair of wellies in the hedge as wasn't allowed to keep them at school, it was so stressful. Now at school until at least 6.30 so dh picks her up, all sport done and homework done in prep sessions. It's great.