Should private schools be abolished?

[JoshLymanIsHotterThanSam]

Link.

I found this an interesting article. I did not realise that we now have one of the worst social mobility records in developed countries. I find this concerning. I am a fan of the grammar school system having been educated in one myself and having a DC who attends one. I have little experience of private schools though. If I'm honest if I had the money I wouldn't hesitate to use a private school, but that is down to the fact that I realise that it gives a leg up to the students attending, however I realise that this should not be the case.

Should we abolish private schools in the interest of fairness?

Yes @MasterGland - but I want my DC to appreciate the importance of sport and fitness too as do many others on incomes that wouldn't go anywhere near school fees. It's all very well saying that the parents have to do it themselves but it's not quite that easy. My DC's comprehensive does it's best but the sports facilities are nowhere near those at the local private school. Therefore many kids like mine are immediately disadvantaged. This is fundamentally unfair and not something that I find morally acceptable. Wouldnt it be great if all children could experience a range of sports. Probably even better for those whose parents cannot afford to access them for financial or logistical reasons. Isn't that the sort of society we should be aspiring to?

Teachers move between the sectors, with the exception of those who are ideologically opposed to private education. It is a myth that there are "better" teachers at private schools.

I do think you have to distinguish between the independent schools outside London and the elite public schools and affluent London day schools . We live in semi rural East Anglia , the most common cars in the carpark are land rovers and various estate cars , and the higher up the school you go the less posh the cars People who can afford to pay for preprep tend to have bigger incomes . Also at our school about 30% of the senior school are on assisted fees.

I know I am very ‘lucky’ to be able to afford to give my dc the education they have had , but I also know that I worked very hard and made the most of my own opportunities to be able to give them that education and I don’t think I should be ashamed of that . My parents grew up in very poor circumstances but grammar school and technical college with real vocational qualifications gave them a route out . Both left school at 16 and I was the first on both sides to go to university.

Many if the state systems problems stem not just on the lack of funding but the system of funding . To be able to cover your costs you have to achieve economies of scale and to do that you need to be huge and then education turns into crowd control. We have lost any sense if individualism, we spend a lot of time talking about inclusiveness but anyone who differs from the norm or struggles with ridiculous uniform rules is put into ‘isolation’ or excluded , how is that inclusive. For the record they don’t have ‘isolation’ in successful systems such as Finland and they don’t care if your shoes are ‘polishable’ either.

We need to learn to value education for what you learn and not for the piece of paper you get from it . We need to provide useful qualifications that enhance people’s life chances and enable them to make the best of themselves. It’s not about the number of stamps in your album , it’s about what you learned getting those stamps .

[quote RosesAndHellebores]@Andante57
Because when politician's children go to state schools they tend to be the very best ones. Blair sent his children to The Oratory; Cameron to Greycoat (wonder if she's still there), Gove to Greycoat. The former Kingston and Surbiton MP's DC went to Tiffin.[/quote]
But surely that doesn’t apply to all MPs? What about the ones that don’t live in London?

Have to remember that many parents of privately schooled children are very competitive

So this plays out on how many sacrifice, go without, it’s a struggle but they just about get buy nonsense

And being privileged is something in our society we don’t like to admit

I was aware of class differences in our society but it wasn’t until ds went to prep school I realised how entrenched it still is within our society it’s like a different set of unspoken rules that I still struggle with. A few other parents do to we recognise each other we don’t fit in

Two children at independent London Day Schools cost £37,000k per annum from net income I seem to recall. That extrapolates to a heck of a lot of scrimping and saving were it necessary. What the scrimping means I suspect is that many manybfamiloes have £30k per annum to spare and stretch to quite afford it.

In my experience the cars were a mixture of bangers (10-15 year old mercs), sensible family cars and up market cars. Lots of mother's drove SMax, Zafiras, etc as well as the Audi, Mercs and Range Rovers.

@FrauleinSchweiger

Happy to own it:

We are extremely lucky in that we are able to afford private school and have no moral objection to sending our children.

I went to a sink state school and was utterly miserable and it has shaped me, negatively.

Our local state school is poor. I would like to see better funding for state schools so that children all have better opportunities. I pay tax, am happy to find state education for others whilst paying private for my own, and would not object to increases in tax to fund better education.

Education is critical to a nation's success and happiness, it should be a priority for us all. We should be looking to raise the standards in all schools, support teachers to make decisions as to what's best for their pupils, focus on helping those that need the most help, raise the ambitions of all children.

@SpaceBethSmith

Private schools are a self fulfilling prophecy. They only take smart kids so they get the highest grades.

Private schools don't have smarter kids - they are able to educate better through smaller classes, less disruption, better quality of learn material, majority of parents very involved in their children's schooling, basically all the money that's pumped into them (not just fees, parent donate heavily for IT suites and transportation). My DC had to switch from independent to (an offsets deemed outstanding) state. They were all placed in the top groups of their classes - were they the cleverest or fittest ? No they weren't, but they did have a better knowledge foundation and physical skill set due to the curriculum of the independent school they were are at previously. The system here is broken. We lived abroad and I agree with PP, it's a much fairer system in Germany and Austria.

@frauleinSchweiger part of the drive for equality in the state system has meant the need for one singular unifying vision for state education. That has been academic achievement. This is the way in which state schools are weighed and measured and an area in which they excel. Sport has been abandoned in pursuit of these standards, usually for more curriculum time spent teaching core subjects.
This was necessary for the pursuit of parity across the system that people seek. If you want children to experience a range of sport, then there will be less time spent teaching core subjects. In general, people dislike this variation in the state system.

@RosesAndHellebores

Two children at independent London Day Schools cost £37,000k per annum from net income I seem to recall. That extrapolates to a heck of a lot of scrimping and saving were it necessary. What the scrimping means I suspect is that many manybfamiloes have £30k per annum to spare and stretch to quite afford it.

In my experience the cars were a mixture of bangers (10-15 year old mercs), sensible family cars and up market cars. Lots of mother's drove SMax, Zafiras, etc as well as the Audi, Mercs and Range Rovers.

Generally more now.

Over £21k each.

You'll never get people to agree to this on here.

People send their kids to private schools because they think they are better (the schools and the people).

Parents who do it get super defensive about it and can't see that they are the problem.

It just goes to show that they have internalised capitalist ideology so much that they don't understand that a more equal system would be better for society more generally and they genuinely believe that humans are inherently selfish.

Good self own there.

www.suttontrust.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/12/PoliticiansBackgrounds_09-Dec-05-1.pdf

59% of Tory MPs were privately educated, 62% of Tory office holders. No data I can see about where they send their children, but Gove was the first education secretary to send his kids to state school, in 2014, and even then it was hardly Scumbag Comprehensive.

Well yes MarshaBrady I should have caveated with an "in about 2014" although I think I added the extras onto that figure.

@RosesAndHellebores

Well yes MarshaBrady I should have caveated with an "in about 2014" although I think I added the extras onto that figure.

Sure no problem.

It is a lot no mistake.

@KeflavikAirport just how many middle class parents do you know who send their dc to "scumbag" comprehensive as you put it. And that was precisely the point I was making - MPs certainly don't

[quote MasterGland]@frauleinSchweiger part of the drive for equality in the state system has meant the need for one singular unifying vision for state education. That has been academic achievement. This is the way in which state schools are weighed and measured and an area in which they excel. Sport has been abandoned in pursuit of these standards, usually for more curriculum time spent teaching core subjects.
This was necessary for the pursuit of parity across the system that people seek. If you want children to experience a range of sport, then there will be less time spent teaching core subjects. In general, people dislike this variation in the state system.[/quote]
I would agree with this except for sport and music etc meaning you have to spend less time on core subjects .

It’s only a choice because we don’t fund schools to reach these . Independent schools teach more sport etc and teach more hours of core subjects and they do this because they can afford more teachers and a longer school day . They also have longer breaks. Ultimately it’s all about funding

I do know quite a few mc who send to least attractive comprehensive here as in SE London you don’t necessarily get much choice but closest and many mc still don’t have income to do private.

The school here will likely change over time as more people move into area

@CorrBlimeyGG

As an example of an independent school that became state funded, see The Belvedere Academy in Liverpool.

Yes, but there was a very good reason for that, wasn't there .. definitely not something that other schools should be using as their lead!

I also disagree with the poster whonsaid independent schools aren't selective and anyone can go if they can pay. That is absolutely not the case with the London Day Schools:

St Paul's
KCS
Westminster
Alleyns
Lady Eleanor Holles
SPGS
WHS
PHS

Their intake is beyond par with the old top 20% who went to grammar school. So there you have the double whammy of privileged and clever.

@MasterGland - there is certainly much within the state sector that has "room for improvement" or that parents and teachers are dissatisfied with. The vast majority of us we have no alternative but to make the best of it.

One could argue that the parents who are relatively well educated themselves can make up some of the shortfall by supplementing their children's knowledge (although I have to admit that Yr 8 ICT was completely baffling to me during homeschooling). I just feel that we would, as a society, all benefit from a well educated population. In this respect it doesn't really serve anyone to have an elite who have been given every opportunity since early childhood, and a majority who have not.

I also completely understand pps who have worked extremely hard to give their children the best education that money can buy. But as I said before, plenty of people also work extremely hard just to put a roof over their heads and food on the table.

@peaseblossum22. My current indie has more holidays (extra 6 weeks a year) but an extra hour on the school day. The extra holidays equate to 180 school hours "missed". The extra hour a day equates to an additional 165 school hours across the year. Time spent in school is therefore roughly the same as my previous outstanding comp. The allocation of that time to diffferent subjects and activities is very different between the two schools.

We could learn a lot from Finland. People go to their local schools and local and wider society are heavily invested in making them successful.

If, like in my area (which is v poorly funded education wise) your local MP sends his kids to private schools and was privately educated themselves, there is little insight into what happens and little incentive to make it better.

I might be wrong but I'm sure Finland pay a huge amount more in tax. No UK government would suggest this as it wouldn't go down well at all (partly because the tax hike would probably make no difference!)

@Theworldisfullofgs

We could learn a lot from Finland. People go to their local schools and local and wider society are heavily invested in making them successful.

If, like in my area (which is v poorly funded education wise) your local MP sends his kids to private schools and was privately educated themselves, there is little insight into what happens and little incentive to make it better.

MPs are supposed to listen to their constituents not work for themselves. Presumably those constituents are lobbying him for improvement?

I do and I dont think the school or the teachers are better. I send my children as I want them to have a good school expirence. He is a bright child and he would be lost in a mainstream school