Should private schools be abolished?

[JoshLymanIsHotterThanSam]

Link.

I found this an interesting article. I did not realise that we now have one of the worst social mobility records in developed countries. I find this concerning. I am a fan of the grammar school system having been educated in one myself and having a DC who attends one. I have little experience of private schools though. If I'm honest if I had the money I wouldn't hesitate to use a private school, but that is down to the fact that I realise that it gives a leg up to the students attending, however I realise that this should not be the case.

Should we abolish private schools in the interest of fairness?

When we viewed state schools for him the class size was a lot 30 in each class which is a standard figure. In his school now he has 16 in his class. I feel he a better standard of education.

Where I live (not UK) my son is in a state school class of 12. No reason UK state schools couldn't do the same if the political will were there to make it happen.

*when

@SpaceBethSmith

Private schools are a self fulfilling prophecy. They only take smart kids so they get the highest grades.

Not all private schools select on academic ability. Ability to pay, yes, ability, not always. Many parents who can afford it choose to send their dc smaller independent schools as they've found they can offer more one to one support for kids with SN. In my view we need a massive overhaul of the state system to properly accommodate more kids with SN. It's appalling how these kids are being let down.

The other very important point is young people's MH and what seems to be an epidemic of MH issues mostly blamed on social media. I wonder if it might be to do with emphasis on academic achievement and ingrained feelings of failure from an early age. When I was at secondary school in the 70s nobody really gave much of a chuff about O and A Levels and very few went to university. Even from the grammar school as well as the private schools lots of people did secretarial or cookery courses and you could get a job in a High Street Bank or the Civil Service at 18.

Sport is really important to us and the state basically did none and the stuff they did do was poor quality and full of kids pulling any stunt they felt like to get out of it. I doubt many mumsnetters will understand this as the majority are very anti school sport (and this attitude had clealry rubbed off on their kids!) dd now has a private timetable and specialist coaching in games lessons plus other team sports 5x a week. She's never been happier. Yes some state schools are near really good sports facilities and those kids tend to also do well in her sport.

@TheReluctantPhoenix private schools are not VAT exempt in fact they pay shed loads of VAT, I know because I am an accountant in one . We pay VAT on practically everything we purchase including when we have large capital projects.

What you mean is that parents in private schools do not pay VAT on their fees . If schools were allowed to charge VAT on the fees arguably they would then play even less tax because VAT is a tax on the end user so the schools would then be able to reclaim the VAT suffered up to the level of the amount charged.

In answer to the OP, I'm not sure 'abolishing' private schools is the answer, but making 'contextual' university offers might be, which is sort of already happening.

Why should the University sector have to make up for the failings of the State education system . So we we are saying is that our publicly funded national education system is unable to prepare its pupils after 14 years of compulsory schooling for our own universities . Can you see how ridiculous that is ?

I am also very pro sport. My son really enjoys it, though is not particularly very good at any particular one. This is why I pay (discounted staff fees, admittedly) despite excellent, probably better academically, state schools in the area. It fits with my vision of education for my son, but others would consider it a waste of money.

@Peaseblossum22

In answer to the OP, I'm not sure 'abolishing' private schools is the answer, but making 'contextual' university offers might be, which is sort of already happening.

Why should the University sector have to make up for the failings of the State education system . So we we are saying is that our publicly funded national education system is unable to prepare its pupils after 14 years of compulsory schooling for our own universities . Can you see how ridiculous that is ?

Yes absurd argument

@KeflavikAirport if that existed here I would have sent my dc to a state school.

That's what some people don't understand. That if you have good schools nearby and it works for your dc then that's ok but some areas in the U.K. the education is dire, it's not all jolly hockey sticks attending them, my family are modestly affording the fees. I go without new clothes, new anything, dc are all in second hand kit every year, old car, smaller rented house. Hardly the British elite!!
We need better state schools and you'll soon see a massive shift of dc move from private to state. Not all but even the wealthy at our school would have liked a better system in the state sector just so we have the choice of a good education for our dc.

I think people realise that, but where is the incentive for the powers that be to improve state provision when their own children get a leg up from opting out of it?

@KeflavikAirport

I think people realise that, but where is the incentive for the powers that be to improve state provision when their own children get a leg up from opting out of it?

But lots of politicians kids go to state already?

But lots of politicians kids go to state already?

Yes exactly. So why aren’t these politicians doing something to improve state schools?

FFS it just gets better and better on here doesn't it.

Instead of just owning it - "We are extremely lucky in that we are able to afford private school and have no moral objection to sending our children "

We get the usual MN bollocks. In other words, State school parents -
Do not prioritize education
Are anti sport
Are just not prepared to drive old cars, have no foreign holidays or wear second hand clothes

You do realise that the majority of people in this country
Do want their children to have a good education
Do want their children to engage in and enjoy sports
Drive old cars (if they are fortunate enough to have a car at all)
Don't go on foreign holidays every year
Dress themselves in second hand clothes anyway

Oh, and they do all this whilst working very hard (another old trope trotted out on here) often in jobs that have kept this country afloat over the past 18 months.

It's no wonder we have the government we have when people on here genuinely believe their own narrative about the inequalities in our society and their lack of contribution in perpetuating them.

I'd have far more respect if they just admitted that they were happy to buy their children the advantages that private education brings without attempting to justify it with all the "sacrifices" they make.

@FrauleinSchweiger
We were very happy to purchase an exceptional education for our children because we wanted them to have the best we could provide. Neither did we have to scrimp or scrape to do it.

@Andante57
Because when politician's children go to state schools they tend to be the very best ones. Blair sent his children to The Oratory; Cameron to Greycoat (wonder if she's still there), Gove to Greycoat. The former Kingston and Surbiton MP's DC went to Tiffin.

There is a strange attitude that’s no said out loud but very much felt that being privileged should not be mentioned/talked about abs certainly not acknowledged

I always tell ds how bloody lucky he is to have the chance to go to a private school with great facilities

But myself and his dad are not from privileged backgrounds so we don’t know this code (or quite get it)

@RosesandHellebores - Fairplay to you. It really angers me when so many on here seem to imply that people that can't afford private education are simply getting their priorities wrong. And as for bitterness and envy, often cited as the real reason for anti private school feeling- is it any wonder that some people may feel this when they work all their lives in low paid but important jobs. A little empathy from those at the top would not go amiss. But again those in power are hardly shining examples of that so no surprise there.

@FrauleinSchweiger

FFS it just gets better and better on here doesn't it.

Instead of just owning it - "We are extremely lucky in that we are able to afford private school and have no moral objection to sending our children "

We get the usual MN bollocks. In other words, State school parents -
Do not prioritize education
Are anti sport
Are just not prepared to drive old cars, have no foreign holidays or wear second hand clothes

You do realise that the majority of people in this country
Do want their children to have a good education
Do want their children to engage in and enjoy sports
Drive old cars (if they are fortunate enough to have a car at all)
Don't go on foreign holidays every year
Dress themselves in second hand clothes anyway

Oh, and they do all this whilst working very hard (another old trope trotted out on here) often in jobs that have kept this country afloat over the past 18 months.

It's no wonder we have the government we have when people on here genuinely believe their own narrative about the inequalities in our society and their lack of contribution in perpetuating them.

I'd have far more respect if they just admitted that they were happy to buy their children the advantages that private education brings without attempting to justify it with all the "sacrifices" they make.

With you on this! Talk of sacrifice is completely OTT too. It's a choice. We all make choices all the time as consumers. This is just another one.

And FWWiW the nicest cars I've ever seen were lined up outside Hampton Boys School in an open day back in 2005. Not an old banger among them!

I don't talk about sacrifices (even though I definitely do drive a shit car)!

No SEN, and very few sacrifices. We are fortunate.

I wanted my son to have the opportunity to appreciate the importance of sport and fitness in his life. It has been very important to me, so I value it. I am not suggesting that state parents are anti sport. As I said earlier, if you value sport, but cant afford private fees, you can encourage you children to take part in sports yourself.
I feel it needs repeating again that state schools are not poor, in this country. The quality of academic state provision has vastly improved in the past ten years.

@FrauleinSchweiger spot on (and love the name). If only I saved the pennies from down the back of our sofa we'd be able to afford private education . Or didn't go on our £500 holiday.... Fact is many of the people who can afford private education are happy to vote for governments that implement austerity, hitting state school provision, SEN services, youthwork, surestart...the list goes on, they don't want to pay more in tax.

Yes. I think all children should get the same start in life no matter their background.

Of course richer parents will always be able to afford tutors, but at least all children have the same fighting chance by having the same teachers etc.

People have some mad ideas about parents who send their kids to private school.

My kids have been to two. The first one was a rural Indi at it was jeeps/very muddy ranges/minis/bentleys/volvos ects

Our prep is in the town centre and its a mix apart from the muddy jeeps. Maybe you are just assuming the unposh cars are the teachers

I looked at secondary private schools out of curiosity as our state secondary is terrible- (in the news for knife crime- catchment covers very nice and very bad areas). At an average of £15k a year there's no way we could afford it, we love where we live but we'll be moving when the time comes! I know that infuriates people but that's the reality of it!