Should private schools be abolished?

[JoshLymanIsHotterThanSam]

Link.

I found this an interesting article. I did not realise that we now have one of the worst social mobility records in developed countries. I find this concerning. I am a fan of the grammar school system having been educated in one myself and having a DC who attends one. I have little experience of private schools though. If I'm honest if I had the money I wouldn't hesitate to use a private school, but that is down to the fact that I realise that it gives a leg up to the students attending, however I realise that this should not be the case.

Should we abolish private schools in the interest of fairness?

Do other countries with private schools also have the over representation in the top jobs? I know a private school that caters for SEN dc & they do a fantastic job & those kids often do get overlooked in state.

• It’s the whole package of private education that continues to ensure inequality in the UK. Not having tutors.* nope. its the quality of state provided education - massive classes, stressed and overworked teachers, no decent SENDS support (e.g. our local outstanding primary offers a generous 10 min per week extra support for dyslexic kids ….) and the focus on SATS that takes the fun out of learning very early on.

Some of the generalisations about private school kids on here would (quite rightly) be considered outrageous if similar comments were made about "all" state school kids.

I went to state school, my kids and husband went to private school. I don't have a chip on my shoulder about my non private education, in fact, it undoubtedly helped me get my job in investment banking as employers were very keen to employ state school educated women.

Of course it's good to improve state education (although it's excellent where we live). But that doesn't mean taking away the choice for parents and landing the government with a huge bill for educating the private school kids.

There are also other factors in educational achievement which are invariably linked to income - whether one parent is at home to supervise and support learning (I'm not saying that working parents don't do this but it's harder if you both have to work long hours), money to buy revision books and educational resources, a house with a quiet place to study, educational level of parents to answer the more difficult queries and so on. These are not insurmountable obstacles to any child excelling at school but it makes it more of a challenge without them.

No, actress and musicians state. The only MP I’ve met was state. I know people from comp in very senior management positions (not ceo but salaries towards a million). I could agree with you that a few occupations are dominated by privately educated people but actually they’re not necessarily the top earners. If you look at pop musicians and footballers they would be on higher salaries and not biased towards privately educated. I’d also argue that it only applies to the elite private schools and that the school they went to is reflective of their position in life and not causative.

"Britain’s most influential people are over 5 times more likely to have been to a fee-paying school than the general population. Just 7% of British people are privately educated, compared to two-fifths (39%) of those in top positions."

This is from the gov website www.gov.uk/government/news/elitism-in-britain-2019

btw, each child in private school subsidises children in state schools. if all these kids would go into state schools, everyone looses. in our town, that would be approximately 1000 additional places in primary alone (reception to year 6). the council already sends kids on 45 min taxi rides because they don’t have enough spaces…

I agree with Gland and it's the reason I moved from a state school to an Independent. The resources aren't actually all that different but the management have clear objectives rather than having to do what the govt or the academy management says even if it makes zero sense for their particular students.

Also what Holly says. Some of those DC have undiagnosed and unsupported SEN.

I really do think a lot of it comes down to better SEN support (taken at its broadest and including gifted too -- provision for able but anxious DC is awful!)

Oh, the knee-jerk inverse snobbery is so unhelpful. Boris Johnson may be many, many things, but he is not a 'thicko'. You don't get an academic scholarship to Eton and a 2:1 in Classics from Balliol and to become Prime Minister by being 'thick' - whoever your friends and family are. You might think he's immoral, objectionable, unfit to govern, pompous, utterly out of touch with the real world, and less clever than he thinks he is - but he is not a 'thicko'.

It's more like 16% at 6th form level btw

@user67542489

Oh, the knee-jerk inverse snobbery is so unhelpful. Boris Johnson may be many, many things, but he is not a 'thicko'. You don't get an academic scholarship to Eton and a 2:1 in Classics from Balliol and to become Prime Minister by being 'thick' - whoever your friends and family are. You might think he's immoral, objectionable, unfit to govern, pompous, utterly out of touch with the real world, and less clever than he thinks he is - but he is not a 'thicko'.

Yes this annoys me too, its a ridiculous thing to say

It's more like 16% at 6th form level btw

Oh that makes it better then 😆

@countrytown

It's more like 16% at 6th form level btw

Oh that makes it better then 😆

Not for you, but just pointing out your numbers aren't correct.

I don't think Boris is thick, I just don't think he is suitable for the job. We surely can do better

Yes re numbers. My DD attends a 400 pupil prep. It's full apart from maybe a half dozen places in year 3. The state primaries were overwhelmed for the 5 years before the year we sent her (slightly better now due to Brexit). It's not the only full prep locally. The local authority would have to build several new primaries (which they're not allowed to do anyway hence the problem). Secondary capacity is also an issue. Every school is oversubscribed. Most cannot expand. House prices round the secondaries would go through the roof as everyone tried to get within a mile!

Sure, not everywhere is like that but some of us are dealing with serious capacity issues with no obvious way to solve them.

No I don't think so. I don't like the comparisons to other countries either because unless we ever ended up with their entire culture and system they aren't really comparable. For example in my old are where I lived when my first dc was born, for all the good schools you had to live on the doorstep of them to get in. The usual price for a small semi was about £1m.
That priced people like me out of that area.

In my own catchment area was a school that my friend worked at and actually where I used to go. This school was now predominantly for dc with English as a second language and no cultural similarities for my dc whatsoever, so no Christmas/Easter celebrations etc, I don't mind mixed whatsoever but my friend was a teacher and said it was so difficult to teach the class as the cultural and language barriers even between the dc, meant she spent half her time hand signing things and not much time covering the curriculum. The dc also used to hurt each other if they came from a different cultural background that didn't like each other!
So I put mine in the local private school which meant I had to continue working ft even though I hadn't planned this and I had tried to downsize to move intolerable flat in the catchment area of the good school but my house sale fell through.

Eventually we moved areas entirely only to be told once again there was very little chance of a place in any good state school with a great amount of hassle (dc attends one school while on waiting list for another) because they were full and so in the end we are still in the private school system. Come secondary my dc will attend state school because I'm more savvy and have moved to be near a good one, education is very important to me.

A lot of countries don't have these daft systems that push the house prices in catchment areas up to such an extent or 11+ etc. A lot of countries asses dc ability to speak the local language and separate them until they can properly integrate and not hold back local dc. I know that's not popular here but I don't see why not, they are still included in sports etc so not completely separated only for academics.
The first private school my dc attended would not have existed if it wasn't for the local state schools not providing a decent education.

Not for you, but just pointing out your numbers aren't correct.

They aren't my numbers, they were from a published government report.

In answer to the OP, I'm not sure 'abolishing' private schools is the answer, but making 'contextual' university offers might be, which is sort of already happening.

The response of the wealthy who could have expected an Oxbridge place until recently is Ivy League instead, given that the fees are increasingly on par.

But the charity status has absolutely got to be ended.

What this country desperately needs is a New Deal. Millions invested in state education, teacher training, schools, tech colleges, quality university degrees. And in return we have to demand better from our state education and from our DC.

So many of us have accepted mediocrity for far too long, we are proud of our boorish ignorance, our xenophobia, our small ambition; we nurture our hatred of 'liberal elites'. All the stuff that brought us Brexit.

Meanwhile, the 'liberal elite' are running further and further ahead of the rest of us, in some cases having resigned themselves to Brexit, they're now looking to advantage themselves via the forthcoming bonfire of workers protection, safe in the knowledge it'll be their properly educated young who will hold the whip hand.

We could do worse than emulate Germany.

No, but they shouldn't have charitable status!

@countrytown

I don't think Boris is thick, I just don't think he is suitable for the job. We surely can do better

I totally agree. I was just arguing against whoever said that we are ruled by 'posh thickos'.

I'm sure I read something on MN from someone who worked in finance, who said that if you remove private schools' charitable status, they would be able to reclaim millions in tax on building projects from previous years - no idea of the details, sorry. You would also probably a see a lot of the bursaries and outreach work disappear. Not saying it shouldn't happen - but there could well be unintended consequences.

@NamiSwan

No, but they shouldn't have charitable status!

The provision of education is a legal charitable aim in Britain (I'm not sure how far charity law is devolved)

And of course charities other than schools depend on it in order to be legal charities

So changes in the law would have to be very careful, as the potential for unintended consequences being quite high (eg charities having to fund schools-based education programmes from non-charitable funds or cease thise activities)

Also, there is no current mechanism to convert charitable assets (funds, buildings, land, equipment) into private ownership, and that is an important safeguard against abuse. If a charity is to be wound up, then those assets should all be sold at full market price, and the proceeds donated a similarly aimed charity.

It would require a change in the law to just remove charitable status, and I have never seen a proposal for his this would work in practice. If anyone knows of one, would they be kind and link, as I'd be interested to see it.

As charitable status is estimated to be worth about £200 per pupil per term (which is lower than the variations between fee levels between schools) then I think if there was a way to just relinquish charitable status without being forced to close and sell up) many schools would take it. Thise which are businesses of course would be unaffected.

No

Interesting points about the legalities of charitable status. I didn't know that.

I haven't read the whole thread.

For as long as we have a one size fits all comprehensive system absolutely not. There is so much emphasis on increased grades and qualifications but so little on providing a quality education. As an employer I am sick and tired of receiving applications from graduates with probably a 2:1, often from a post 92 who frankly are unable to construct a logical or grammatically correct sentence. There is something very very wrong at the heart of this country's education system. For as long as it remains so wrong the state provision cannot and must not be a compulsory factor with no other options.

There are in my opinion four major factors that need to be dealt with.

1. One size does not fit all and we need smaller, specialist schools rather than huge comprehensives with hundreds of children in a year group. And yes that may mean some selection at 11 but there must be clearer pathways for transfer at 13 although that could be up as well as down.

1. SEN provision - far more funding and far more specialist schools although I believe if schools were smaller some children with high functioning neuro disabilities would fare much better.

1. Behaviour - headteachers must have the ability and budgets to permanently exclude those pupils whose presence is a detriment to the safety, happiness and achievement of the majority.

1. Taking account of all the above governments and parents need to come to an understanding that not all children are academic, not all children and young people will fulfil their learning potential by age 18 but all young people need a grounding in written, and spoken English and basic numeracy focusing on practical arithmetic and life skills: budgeting, tax returns, producing an invoice, a set of books, etc. FE should provide a 2nd chance into people's 20s and 30s if they need to pursue qualifications once they have matured and gained some life experience. With that should come far more respect for the vocations and small businesses so often scorned by the educational establishment but which we all need: hairdressers, florists, butchers, plumbers, mechanics, electricians, decorators, etc. All vital to a functioning society.

Finally, a long hard look at HE and whether some of it needs to revert to the vocational roots of the old polytechnics. With that a very hard look at our teacher training colleges which probably need to spend at least a term dealing with and rectifying ingrained poor English and numeracy skills amongst their students so the literacy and numeracy drain stops being perpetuated.

We moved a bright child from state at 8 because he was not thriving at an outstanding primary. His sister fared better but was moved at 13 from a CofE holy grail comprehensive due to the disgraceful behaviour of a small minority who the head refused to deal with. One thing that stands out for me is that there were cleverer children at that school than my dd. None of those with the ability to go to Oxbridge but who stayed did so. All of those with the ability who transferred to the independent sector between years 8 and 11 did. That's what's wrong but the wrong doesn't lie within the independent sector it lies within the state sector and governments and educationalists need to recognise it and deal with it but first and foremost stop making excuses and get over their own skewed ideologies.

@NamiSwan

No, but they shouldn't have charitable status!

I very much disagree

This would further divide the two sectors.

Atm there is reaching out to outside the very wealthy. Take that away and that would all go.

Wen state schools become good, fair places to learn for everyone, maybe then we can consider abolishing private schools. God forbid you're the wrong colour or ability level, at which point your parents may have to fork out to send you private so that you get treated and educated like an actual human being