Should private schools be abolished?

[JoshLymanIsHotterThanSam]

Link.

I found this an interesting article. I did not realise that we now have one of the worst social mobility records in developed countries. I find this concerning. I am a fan of the grammar school system having been educated in one myself and having a DC who attends one. I have little experience of private schools though. If I'm honest if I had the money I wouldn't hesitate to use a private school, but that is down to the fact that I realise that it gives a leg up to the students attending, however I realise that this should not be the case.

Should we abolish private schools in the interest of fairness?

@Lanique

Anyone who thinks that just using private tutors for an hour after school each night will magically tip such kids into the echelons of the elite on a par with full-time attendance at a glossy institution that ghettoises society socially and ensures that its pupils don't have to mix with 'everyone else' is disingenuous at best and damn ignorant at worst.

I completely agree. It’s the whole package of private education that continues to ensure inequality in the UK. Not having tutors.

Funny how people expect to share everyone else's money

You’re not in favour of taxation, then? Choose your answer carefully.

.. Says the person who uses tutors!

What is it about the whole package?

I'm a single mum with a maths-obsessed 13yo. By year 5 he was already angry, miserable and alienated by his primary school. He's at a small independent school now, on a scholarship and I skrimp to find the rest of the fees. It is a struggle but he's happy, fulfilled, enthusiastic.
If private schools were banned I'd have to find him lots of extra tuition, to keep him from going off the rails. Or move abroad.

Essentially we have a 'social contract' which covers lots of aspects of life such as health, education, housing etc. The state will ensure that everyone is satisfactorily housed, educated, treated when ill, fed etc. If people want to live to a higher standard - to eat nicer food, live in a nicer house, have their hip replaced sooner - then they can pay to do so. Many of us would agree that currently the 'standard' provided by the state is not always good enough - and would support higher taxation to improve education, for example. And you could make the argument that if (for example) everyone including the rich had to live in state housing, eat a state-dictated diet, then the standard of that housing and food would increase (although actually, economists often argue that this kind of blunt engineering doesn't actually work, because of unintended consequences). But I don't think anyone has made a good argument yet as to why we should abolish private education whilst allowing choice in other areas.

Connections. The them and us attitude. Connections again.

Yes I've just paid for a private MRI scan and private dentistry

No one starts threads saying how people who do this are contributing to social inequality/are deluded/snobs

Is it just when children are involved people feel they can be as unpleasant as they like?

It won't make a jot of difference. Wealthier parents will just pay for private tutors in the short term, and in the long term will force up the price of housing in 'good catchments' so only the very wealthy can buy there.

Effectively, the best performing state schools will become private.

rickoshay I have no connections to anyone, I just needed to find somewhere that would teach Ds maths & science at a fast enough rate to stop him losing interest.

As for cost, I'm a single mum, on basic rate tax, running a 12 yo car, and haven't been on holiday in years. I manage, just. But it has nothing at all to do with 'connections'!

Plus use o/s schools.

Atm people are attracted to schools here from o/s

Yes I've just paid for a private MRI scan and private dentistry

No one starts threads saying how people who do this are contributing to social inequality/are deluded/snobs

Is it just when children are involved people feel they can be as unpleasant as they like?

Well yes people do talk about the NHS & been forced to go private & what about ones that can't. However you are getting things convoluted. It's nothing to do with being mean to children.

"Britain’s most influential people are over 5 times more likely to have been to a fee-paying school than the general population. Just 7% of British people are privately educated, compared to two-fifths (39%) of those in top positions."

The above is not a good thing for society as a whole is it?

www.gov.uk/government/news/elitism-in-britain-2019

No my sons are in private school. Son one is very bright l. When we viewed state schools for him the class size was a lot 30 in each class which is a standard figure. In his school now he has 16 in his class. I feel he a better standard of education. He is ahead in all of his subjects and has a reading age of 8. He is 6.

@Iamthewombat

Funny how people expect to share everyone else's money

You’re not in favour of taxation, then? Choose your answer carefully.

Taxation like Government spending is and always been a fundamental necessity to allow the functioning of a state.

The issue is that voters generally only support higher taxation when it is on someone else (- eg tax the rich - the rich being defined as anyone with a higher income than the person making the statement - who are the rich - the top 1% of earners, the top 10%,25%? Already the top 1% of earners provide 30% of total income tax raised, 45% of workers pay no tax as they are below the threshold and 54% pay 70% of income tax revenue.

Equally on Government spending most voters support higher spending on areas that benefit them and are quiet or supportive on cuts in areas that they do t benefit from.

So the issue with continually supporting higher taxation is that sooner or later you will run out of other people's money.

@Rizzoli123

No my sons are in private school. Son one is very bright l. When we viewed state schools for him the class size was a lot 30 in each class which is a standard figure. In his school now he has 16 in his class. I feel he a better standard of education. He is ahead in all of his subjects and has a reading age of 8. He is 6.

The question is about whether private schools should be banned in favour of fairness and social mobility. On a societal scale, not just about what's best for your specific kids. Shouldn't those children in state schools have the same opportunities for access to quality education and support?

Yes. I live in an area where there are no private school or grammar schools. As a result, the comprehensive system is excellent and the children excel.

If we abolish them, there will be more money in the system for state schools (easily found if needed!).

Think of all the money saved by parents that they could spend elsewhere.

Also, also, it's the only way children can have an equal start. The amount of people I know who have gone through the private school system who really are not bright at all. I genuinely think they would have got more out of life if they had access to good apprenticeships and learnt a skill or trade rather than floundering in a mediocre office job.

The amount of people I know who have gone through the private school system who really are not bright at all

And unfortunately most of them are at the top level of government. We’re ruled by posh thickos.

@Dontforgetyourbrolly

No of course not . I'd send ds to private school without hesitation if I could . The question you should be asking is should state schools be better ? YES

This!!!!

Part of what strengthens our economy and attraction to ROW is using schools here to attract o/s students. This is mostly public / private system.

I grew up elsewhere and it was like this then and still is. If they were abolished you’d lose all that.

I also think some state schools benefit from a sense of striving and competition- I’ve used state and private sector and would not want to lose that either. Not all state I’ve used have that feel but some do and can be good.

At the moment the private sector does provide an alternative for DC let down by the state system for whatever reason (SEN, particular gift or talent, lack of places in the area, lack.of wraparound, wrong or no religion etc) as well as for parents who want a particular type of education that doesn't align with state priorities. It's an expensive and unevenly spread alternative, for sure, but it's there. If you look into the history of independent schools you will find educational reformers, feminists, warriors for social equality - people who disagreed with the way things were and put their money where their mouths were. The fact that the independent sector has had to chase today's monied types doesn't negate that.

For the same reason I would be very dubious about the NHS providing 100% of healthcare with no alternative.

It's perfectly possible for a state education or healthcare system to provide a good outcome for the average child/patient, while doing a dreadful job in the case of individuals.

There needs to be an alternative.

And unfortunately most of them are at the top level of government. We’re ruled by posh thickos

Dismantledking I guess you think everyone who is posh is automatically a thicko.

See, here is where the argument starts to degenerate. In one breath, the privately educated are "accessing a quality education" and in the next they are "posh thickos". The truth is much more nuanced, of course.
This subject always raises the hackles because almost all parents care deeply about their children. As I said previously, the difference between state and independent is fast becoming the difference in answer to the question of what you believe the purpose of education to be. If you believe, as most people do, that it is to prepare children for the world of work and increase their chance of material success, then the current crop of state schools will help you achieve that. They are not "shit". They are populated by teachers who are worked to the bone, to squeeze every last grade out of every child they teach. Schools that don't do this successfully are quickly being taken over by MATs that will. Good for kids academic success, though admittedly often bad for teacher mental health and happiness at work.
If you believe that education should include other things, a general expansion of the mind, fostering a love of sport, finding one's true talents etc etc. Then you can either a) pick an independent school that shares your ethos, if you have the funds or b) provide these additional opportunities to your child yourself as much as your budget will allow.
We should support each other in the choices we make for our children.

I think a lot of the problems with state schools is the few disruptive pupils that there seems to be no method of dealing with.
Whisk them out to a separate class with intensive teaching and attention - but no one seems able to afford that.

@OldScrappyAndHungry

Finland has no private schools and an infinitely better education system.

Finland has a tiny, non diverse population. The system is also well funded. The population are much more equal in terms of poverty and wealth than here.

Don't compare apples and oranges.

From another perspective, surely it’s easier to teach children’s who’s behavior is good?
I doubt private schools have children who shout swear and throw things or start fights, because they would lose their place in an instant. Many have rules expecting certain grades. Smaller classes help as do extra curriculum to build team work and relationships. Plus all the lovely school trips.

If you look at comprehensive schools, they set children, so the top tier have expectations of grades and behavior.

Bottom sets have no expectations and experience behavior problems. I know my kids go to comps.

So by definition state schools have the same system within them for the same reasons. It’s not really any different

Get your kids into the top sets and they should teach their full potential.

No good complaining about unfairness of private schools

The main difference is SEN, which is whilst underfunded
and parental support.
If you have parental support you’ll achieve your best results.

@Iamthewombat

Funny how people expect to share everyone else's money

You’re not in favour of taxation, then? Choose your answer carefully.

Yes I'm in favour of taxation. We pay huge amounts of tax.