Prince Andrew sued by Virginia Roberts ll

[Blossomtoes]

Continued from previous thread

Prince Andrew shows the cost of preserving the fairytale

Yes. That is quite manageable whilst all members of the RF behave themselves and do what they should be doing and don't take the piss with the public!

An interesting take on it all this morning... by an academic far more intelligent than me... as it is said that his lawyers are looking at diplomatic immunity for PA to enable the case to be thrown out.

"Prince Andrew’s lawyers should probably take a look at the Vienna Convention of Diplomatic Relations and recognise that: Sovereign immunity is a concept devised to protect the position of heads of state, not the members of their family in their function as head of state"

@Roussette

If they behave themselves

That is a big ask for unelected individuals who grow up in a fish bowl, are told from birth how special they are and may not have the intellect or personality for the role.

I never valued the fairytale, I have been up front about that. However I just ignored it, like a pop band I wasn't a fan of. I now feel the whole lot needs to go because it is unsustainable.

We cannot fire a member of the royal family and the institution itself seems only able to take away patronages as a punishment and set the media on them if they get really pissed off.
But I do not like the idea of setting the media on an individual who has disappointed you for reasons (like Meghan recently and Fergie in the 90s) - it is cruel and has broader ramifications.
Look at the rage when Harry stepped back - if they stay and are crap, we do not have the tools to punish them in a normal and proportionate way and if they try to leave it is a national insult and we collectively lose our minds.

I do not know where we go from here but I really want people who are fans of the fairytale to join the conversation. Where do we go from here?

I've just found an Independent article from when PA had to step down as Trade Envoy back in 2011. Apparently a statement from Downing Street said that Cameron was 'fully supportive' of him. Now that, with hindsight, is very telling.

So one of the roles of our elected Prime Minister is to support not just the Head of State, but her dreadful, venal middle-aged son? It's not really working well in a digital age, is it? I think our PMs need to rethink their puppet status PDQ, because this is where it gets them - into dangerous territory, commenting, not commenting, wriggling, deflecting ...

@SpindleWhorl
@Roussette

100% agreed - claiming diplomatic immuninity; the PM of the day publicly co-signing. It was not acceptable pre social media. In a digital age it is madness.

And once more to my soapbox - where is our media? where are the opinion pieces? This is not about being a republican - if you want to preserve the RF you should be front and centre addressing this.

Yes, agree.

Where on earth do we go from here, I have no idea. I would like to think that even ardent royalists are all for the slimming down monarchy, but it isn't just that is it...
The relationship between the RF and the media surely has to change. Get rid of the RR's, the sycophantic hacks, the likes of the arse lickers working for the DT and let's have a quieter, peaceful Monarchy.
That wont come about probably for years... but that is what I would be aiming for if I were PC.
Cast aside all those minor royals, stop kowtowing to the press, do good works, and work closely together for a streamlined monarchy

I think our PMs need to rethink their puppet status PDQ, because this is where it gets them - into dangerous territory, commenting, not commenting, wriggling, deflecting

Yes yes yes

Where do we go from here ?
I am a Royalist . I think HM has done an amazing job over the years and continues to be someone I admire .
Her weak point appears to be PA . Having said that , none of us know what is said behind closed doors. Despite the rumours I don’t think for one moment PA will retain his Military roles not will he return to public life ( good).
PC has made it known for years he wishes to see a slimmed down RF and PW appears to support that . The Kents and Gloucesters are elderly so will retire/ pass away in the not too distant future . All of their DC and DGC are non working Royals .
Anne and Andrew’s DC are non working Royals . Sophie and Edward have been clear that their DC will need to work .
I think that many people would support fewer titles being dished out and that seems to happening ( Tindalls, Phillips , York DGGC) . I know that many people will disagree but I don’t think Archie and Lilibet should be accorded Prince/ Princess titles when PC succeeds his DM . Firstly , they are non working Royals, secondly they are likely to continue living in the US which - I understand- doesn’t “ do “titles and thirdly as the Cambridge DC grow and have their own families , H and family will become even less relevant . After all Prince Edward was once third in line and is now around 15 .

@Oldbutstillgotit

Withholding titles doesn't solve anything and in the case of Archie & Lillibet, it looks vindictive. Titles do not confer funding nor do they confirm a role in the organisation so why withhold the birthright of children?

The issue to me is we have a hereditary monarch (the Q) that on balance most people are happy with.
However our media do not report accurately on the institution and on occasion they deliberately mislead and cover up what the family members are doing. The media are also very reluctant to discuss what the monarch is using her constitutional powers for.
Finally the monarch cannot punish or fire a poorly performing member of the team.

So if we retain the monarchy we have to focus on the HR and Comms piece. Titles do not matter imo.

We need to plan for the worst case scenario in terms of intellect and temprament for the monarchy.

Using the media to gloss over shortcomings doesn't work.

But if we can fire and replace poor performers what is the differnce between elected officals. And again sliming down the monarch just reduces the pool of potential workers. What if the Wessex children are painful shy or otherwise ill suited? Will we launch a press harassment campaign against Charlotte and Louis to ensure they don't try and run off at 18?

Of course stopping titles is important ! Having a title be it Prince/ Lord / Sir opens doors and has advantages . I was at Uni with someone who is now a Lady and she loves it - best tables in restaurants etc . Shallow but true .
I am not going into the whole H and M debate but just because something is their birthright doesn’t make it palatable. In any case why on earth would caring parents want to lumber their DC with titles which associate them with a toxic family ?

OK but now we are back on the HR point

If a title confers a value or advantage - taking them from minor children can never be right. For adults we should have a clear process whereby we can remove them:

1. Criminal activtiy
2. Moral crimes?
3. Generally unpopular?
4. Living outside of the UK?

And presumably this stripping of titles should apply to all title e.g. earls, dukes, barons, lords and ladies.
If the value is quanitfiable - why not just sell them to raise money for the public sector - £10m for a dukedom, £50m for a prince?
I am not having a dig, I am just showing that once you jump down the rabbit hole you either have to be fair and logical or you leave it alone.

In the case of prince Andrew his protection and the collusion with the press was because he was the monarch's son not because he has a title. To me this is what we need to solve. Stripping Andrew's title doesn't solve the problem.

I am only concerned about those working within the firm.

@Oldbutstillgotit

Sorry can I nudge you back to what you think about how to manage the monarchy in terms of press protection or having members who cannot fulfil their role.

What is the best solution for dealing with a prince Andrew?

I think HM has done an amazing job over the years and continues to be someone I admire .Her weak point appears to be PA

I agree with this. I’m not an ardent Royalist but I am a traditionalist and I don’t want to lose the monarchy. The process of slimming it down has already begun and I’m happy for it to continue.

Once the Queen has gone there will essentially be just seven adult working Royals, that’s good. It means they’ll have to be more selective about their engagements which, in turn, will make them more special. When we move to the youngest generation, there will be just three - Williams’s children.

PA is the latest - and most deeply unpleasant - bump in the road for the RF but they’ve had plenty of others. Edward Vll had mistresses and unacknowledged kids all over the place, disabled children have been hidden away, there’s been drug addiction. And the monarchy has survived it all. While the majority of the population continues to want it, it’s going nowhere.

We need to plan for the worst case scenario in terms of intellect and temprament for the monarchy.

To give a possible example: when George I inherited the throne in the 18th century he was also king of Hanover. Therefore the British kings after him were also kings of Hanover but when it got to Victoria, the crowns diverged as women couldn't inherit the throne of Hanover due to Salic Law. The Hanoverian title went to Victoria's eldest uncle.

His descendant, the current Prince of Hanover, is an alcoholic with a history of bad behaviour, including causing a diplomatic incident BG urinating in public and assaulted a man. He has alienated his children and drank so much at one son's wedding that he was put in a coma to recover. We're just lucky that there was no Salic Law in Britain because then he would be our king. And we'd have Caroline of Monaco as Queen and be tied to the infamous Grimaldis!

Unfortunately with a monarchy it's luck of the draw - we could get an Elizabeth II or we could get an Ernst of Hanover - we'd have no choice!

Sorry no idea what to do about Press protection. The simplistic answer to the question about what to do with members who cannot fulfill their role would be to “ persuade” them to step aside .
Andrew should be stripped of titles and place in LOS ; not just because of the VG situation but because of his shady dealings over the years .

I reckon media have been silenced to some extent..

@YogaLite

I reckon media have been silenced to some extent..

I don’t think they have or PA wouldn’t have been judged in the court of public opinion and found guilty. The Maitlis interview was the tipping point.

Currently there’s nothing to report. It’s a complete impasse. The papers for Roberts’ case (which have to be served by the end of this month) are in a vacuum because he’s tucked away out of reach in Balmoral. What can the media say, apart from nothing’s happened?

Just watch the media coverage when the Maxwell trial starts.

@Blossomtoes
@Oldbutstillgotit

Thank you for explaining your thoughts, this is really interesting.

Blossom do you mean that once Wessex and Cambridge adults retire that only the Cambridge (now adults + their children) should carry out all the engagements. So the Wessex children who are a bit older than the cambridge kids, should never have to do any duties.

Stillgotit the press piece I agree is a real stumbling block. Regarding the "persuading". PA was known to have a relationship with a paedophile in 2011. The firm has had 10 years to convince him to stop and be quiet. I think from an HR perspective, the use of persuasion has not worked.
Again if PA is removed from the civil list and is not convicted of a crime - what right do we have to strip his titles and place in the LOS. (I cannot stand him either) However the monarchy is not Big Brother, we cannot just boot out people we do not like. If we change the rules so we can - we are moving closer to an elected representative and away from hereditary monarchy. For me this is fine but I think for you (and royalists in general) that is not a good answer.

do you mean that once Wessex and Cambridge adults retire that only the Cambridge (now adults + their children) should carry out all the engagements. So the Wessex children who are a bit older than the cambridge kids, should never have to do any duties

Yes. The Wessexes have already said their children are expected to get jobs. Bear in mind that the RF don’t - despite the Duke of Edinburgh’s aberration - retire. They die with their boots on!

@Blossomtoes
@YogaLite

The newsnight interview was instigated by PA himself.
If he had kept quiet who knows if the media would have dug into his relationship VG and Epstein.
The media and RF knew since 2011 there was a relationship with Epstein (that was inappropriate / damaging) and VG had been complaining for years before the newsnight interview.

We don’t know what might happened so let’s work with what we’ve got, shall we?

@Blossomtoes

I am not venturing into whataboutery, I just wanted to clarify that PA opened the door to the media circus. Prior to his intervention it was being downplayed.

Yes. I bet he rues the day he, with Beatrice's encouragement, agreed to do that interview.
Maybe he could have 'got away with it' without that. When I say got away with it... I mean his behaviour as opposed to anything legal.

@Roussette

So basically we all got lucky, the stupidity and arrogance of PA forced the issue into the open.

Not picking on Blossom/Stillgotit but it doesn't seem like there is an answer to what changes / checks we can put in place to stop another PA whilst preserving the monarchy mostly as it is now.

I would love for the Times / Telegraph to step up to the plate and write a pro Royalist opinion piece about how to stop something like this happening in the future.

Do we try to weaken the links with the rota?
Do we reduce the actual constitutional powers of the monarch?
Do we slim down the activities of fairytale element to just weddings and funerals with a few ribbon cutting event per month? - so no special envoys / quango roles
Do we find a protocol that allows individuals in the family to change their mind and step back from duties or step back in? Perhaps a template that triggers a vote / or a government committee to remove someone from the duties?

So basically we all got lucky, the stupidity and arrogance of PA forced the issue into the open.

Absolutely. His arrogance has taken him to this situation we are at today. Sadly, he won't have learned from it, and with the best legal teams in the world, will be scrabbling around to totally vindicate himself. Without SM, no doubt he would be wearing the uniforms and told tassels again.

I would love for the Times / Telegraph to step up to the plate and write a pro Royalist opinion piece about how to stop something like this happening in the future

Me too. Good journalism talking about the future of the RF.

Do we find a protocol that allows individuals in the family to change their mind and step back from duties or step back in

Yes to the stepping back. Surely out of all the young royals coming up (Sophie's children, and W&K's) there will be one, two or more who will think 'not for me, not in a million years'.