I want to kick DS out TODAY? Totally devastated by what he’s been saying about us.

[FeelingUtterlyBetrayed]

Sorry this is really long but I feel so betrayed and devastated and furious!

This lunchtime as I was sitting on the sofa I noticed a phone on the other arm of it, assumed it was DH’s as he’s off today but noticed the screen was open on what looked like a long message rather than being black and locked. I thought was odd so picked it up out of curiosity.

It was actually DS’s (19) phone, they both have Samsung phones. His phone obviously had been set not to time out.

He had been in a convo with his best friend about moving out, as he’s going to University in September, which apparently he’s desperate to do as we are very abusive to him and exploiting him for money (this was his friend saying this!).

His friend was advising him that he should contact the Uni to ask what help there is for students estranged from abusive parents and said ‘they even hit you man, that’s a crime, you could call the police on them’.

We also never support him and make him feel like shit about himself apparently.

We had have major issues with DS for many years due to extreme laziness and screen addiction. He is also very arrogant and argumentative, knows everything and is always right and other the last few years has become very aggressive and shouty when asked to do anything/called out on his behaviour, even with his younger brother.

We used to get constant calls from school about him not doing homework (even about falling asleep in class) and during his GCSE’s about him not completing coursework. He did much worse than expected but managed to get enough to do his A levels which he wanted to do. I actually tried to dissuade him from doing them as I knew it would be a nightmare to keep him focused after the stress of his GCSE’s but he insisted he wanted to do them and promised he would work hard.

We found out mid way through the course that he was flunking them and his tutor didn’t think it worth him continuing as he was constantly on his phone in class and not doing the work. So a whole year wasted.

Then he decided he wanted to do a BTEC about something he was passionate about so we supported him in that but again I constantly had to get him up in the morning, he was slow to finish his work and wasn’t handing stuff in on time. I had calls just before he was due to finish with concerns he was forecast for a Pass when he needed a Merit to get into Uni and that he hadn’t bothered to attend his English GCSE resit as he’d overslept! Lots of stress at home about this and constantly being on his back about doing the work. Still there were many times he didn’t even bother to go in and I’m amazed he got the Merit!

He also lost his part time job, which was a condition of him doing his BTEC for us as there was extra course fees and materials needed and I told him he had to pay them himself as it was his choice to do the course and be at college for an extra year. He lost that job within 6 months as he couldn’t get up to go to it and wasted all the cash on online gaming anyway!

When I say couldn’t get up, this was an evening job so he started at around 6pm! As he’d be up all night gaming, he’d stumble into college and then go to bed as soon as he got home in the afternoon! On weekends he’d stay up all night and sleep all day. I’d have to go to get up him and drive him there but gave up in the end as he was just taking the piss!

He hasn’t been able to get another job since last March despite me telling him from last year that if he wanted to go to Uni, he needed to get a part time job to save for the accommodation as we have no spare cash to subsidise him (and I didn’t want to with his track record).

There have been lots of arguments and we’ve lost our tempers and struggled with him to try to confiscate his phone (which we still pay for) or get his headphones off his head as he’s woken us up during the night shouting and swearing while gaming. Many times he has woken DH up at 3/4am and DH has a job where he can’t go into work tired!

Since he finished college, he literally sleeps all day and stays up all night. I have offered to pay for gym membership for him (have paid in the past but he ended up not going), given him cash to go out with his mates, tried to get him up and encourage him to do something but he will often sneak back to bed. I’ve looked up jobs for him to apply for for the summer, driven him to interviews, had to drag him out of bed to get ready. He’s even missed interviews by being asleep.

We’ve taken the WiFi but he just plays downloaded games.

I admit DH and I have both lost our shit and poured water over him to get him up and we have had tussles. His mates have also heard us shouting at him to shut up while he’s been online gaming with them as he’s so loud and also to get off the game for dinner or to do a chore he’s been asked to do. He often leaves his dinner on the side for hours after we’ve cooked for him and the other night we got him down to eat it but he left it on the table untouched and went back to bed! We come down in the morning to dirty glasses and plates left lying about. He rarely showers or brushes his teeth. He does nothing around the house.

We are at our wits end but had no choice but to support him to go to Uni as what else is he going to do? He can’t even get a part time job in a cafe!

As he can’t afford the accommodation, he will be living at home and commuting so we have said we want half of his first maintenance loan as we have been continuously paying out for him since he lost his part time job.

I recently paid over £200 for contact lenses which he can’t be bothered to put in, despite saying he wanted them. He has also lost two bikes over the last year by not bothering to chain them up. One was his Dad’s and he had to buy a new one, so we’ve said he can pay us back for that. He also got into an accident due to not looking where he was going and we had to pay for the damage to the car so he owes us for that. I gave him £100 a few weeks ago to buy clothes. So including all the £20 here and there, it’s probably over £1000 he’s had off us which I want back from his first maintenance loan and I think is reasonable. He’ll get around £2800.

He will only have train fare to Uni to pay so will have plenty for going out but apparently we are ‘exploiting’ him for money!

We are not well off as I have had to be a SAHM due to his brother being disabled so we have really struggled financially but always made sure he had everything he needed but apparently he’s embarrassed at us as we are ‘poor’ and all his mates parents are paying for their Uni accommodation and paid for their cars etc!

We have tried so hard to support him while coping with his brother and 2 other DC whilst he has been making himself out to be a victim to his mates and behaving disgracefully at home.

I have told him to pack his stuff and ask his mate if he can crash with him and I wash my hands of him. He’s in bed asleep right now!

I just cannot believe he actually thinks we are abusive to him . I can’t stop crying.

@Maassi

I wonder how many of the posters saying poor kid and that you are abusive have actually lived in a situation this awful?

I grew up wiyh my brother like this and it was utterly horrific. He is still an abusive man and has zero redeeming qualities. Sometimes people are just vile dickheads despite everything. There's not always a reason why.

In what way is he being a vile dickhead? He is poorly organised, he is a bit feckless and irresponsible, he is prioritising the wrong parts of his life, but he isn't being "actively" vile, is he? Whereas his parents pour water on him, try to pull his phone and computer off him, are asking for half his maintenance loan, etc. That's pretty vile behaviour towards an adult, even one who isn't managing his daily life that well.

I hope MNHQ will jump quickly on this thread, some of the comments are absolutely vile

and unhelpful!

I admit DH and I have both lost our shit and poured water over him to get him up and we have had tussles

sorry, this does sound abusive

Also, it sounds like he is an owl, not a lark

Some people are preprogrammed to live with a body clock like this - it is genetic, it is not a choice, and it is a major disadvantge in modern life- although traditionally it would have been of benefit to the whole community as there would have been a "nightwatch".

People with this genetic predisposition suffer doubly throughout their teens, as it is compounded by living through the teenage shift in body clock too.

yes, he has to learn to live in a time zone not naturally suited for him, but pouring water over him is not a helpful or supportive way to achieve that.

I don't think you should kick him out, no. Where would he go? He might well end up sleeping rough, then what would happen to his studies?

I think you should let him see how upset you are, and try talk to him adult to adult, and see his point of view, and ask him to see yours, and work out how you can move forward from this.

@Maassi did your parents also regularly hit/shove your brother and wake him from a deep sleep by tipping cold water on his head?

I’m sorry that your brother was an unpleasant person but what op is describing is abusive, and to be honest, even from her own description, her ds sounds far more depressed than lazy.

If he was that lazy, how on earth did he get a merit for his BTEC and get into university? Op didn’t even want him to go so it’s not like she supported him to do all of that work is it?

Either you kick him out, and it will be the wake up call he needs. He will have to start working if he wants to eat basically!

A young single man is very low on the list of priorities to get help, it's his interest and safety that are at risk,

Or, you put an ultimatum. Support (which is normal from parent) in exchange of a very strict set of condition in term of behaviour, respect, and work.

If he can't be arsed to get up because mummy is picking up the bill and he can play games all night, he's out.

No one else lost patience when a teen doesn’t come down for dinner, answer you calling them, or listen to anything you say as ‘I’ve got headphones on’ as if that’s something that’s out of their control?

losing patience does not involve shoving, tussling or trying to snatch their phone away

I think saying that pouring water on someone who refuses to get out of bed and act like an adult or taking headphones off someone who is waking up the whole house is abuse is ridiculous and if either of my DC thought this was acceptable at that age they would be getting similar.

However, I wouldn't take half of his maintenance loan. I would use this as an opportunity to cut the strings and make him grow up. He has his loan, he lives at home but funds himself from the loan and adheres to house rules. So he buys his own contact lenses, etc. Also stop cooking for him if he can't be bothered to eat it. List of chores that are his. Tell him the plan, if he doesn't like it or doesn't stick to it (sounds unlikely) he can find somewhere else to live.

@Deathsquito

Water is not "violence" Some posters make it sound like someone hosing down a tiny 5 year old, not pouring some on the head of a young adult.

Spoken by someone who has clearly never felt (or can empathise) with the physical shock and fear that being woken that way from a deep sleep causes. It absolutely is abuse and not normal behaviour from an adult.

oh come on

It can't be such a "deep sleep" when the parents have been trying to make him get up... and he just can't be arsed to listen.

Don't confuse randomly throwing water at 3 am (abuse)
and face to refusal to get up time and time again, (and already awake...) getting water poured on your head.

With regarding pouring water over him, can anyone suggest other ways in which to get an adult out of bed without violence?

Wtf did I just read? Are you saying that you had no other choice in the world and were compelled to pour water over a sleeping person???

I guess I should have just left him there, so I got done by the truancy officer and he got kicked out of college then?

Why would you be "done by the truancy officer" if he's over 16?

Honestly, OP, it sounds like you're very controlling and I can see how you think you're helping by running his life for him (driving him to interviews, taking responsibility for waking him up, etc) and paying for things you think will help him, but by micromanaging him like that, you're just denying him the opportunity to grow up and become independent.

If you don't want to pay for his contact lenses, living expenses, etc, then don't. But YABU to voluntarily pay and then complain that you did so.

You're making these choices, so either make different ones or stop complaining. You do have choices here, despite the fact you're portraying yourself as being compelled to do all these things against your will.

I would suggest you stop paying for his phone. I don't think you should take his loan money, but as has already been suggested don't loan him any more when it runs out.
He will probably blow it incredibly quickly and needs to learn to step on his own two feet. Of course you aren't abusive, this sucks, but once he's lived on his own and realised he has to cook his own food and wash his own clothes he will realise how much support you have given him. Stick this out, I wish you all well.

He needs a trip to a psychiatrist, nobody choses to be the way he is. Hopefully he manages to move out and find some more supportive people at uni.

Some of the comments on the post are absolutely shocking and show how far we still have to come with regards to mental health. No matter how difficult you might find parenting, there is never an excuse to act in an abusive way towards your child.

He sounds very much like my D's. Now 18. Diagnosed ASC. Struggled mightily with sleep. Obsession with tech. Struggled with school. Self motivation. College. College work. Getting up. Going to bed. I tried to help him as much as I could. Frustrating yes. I too have tried to wake him up with water (in sheer desperation). Didn't work. We also had tussles. With me trying to grab things off him. Didn't work. What did work was getting him melatonin from USA ordered online. And it did help a bit. What he does know is that he is loved. And that is unconditional. He is a lovely, friendly, funny young man. And I'll support him in anything. He started an apprenticeship last year. He loves it. He gets up. He showers. He had to find his way. But while I was doing it he has always known I love him and have his back. Not a single part of your op mentions that you care for him at all. I'm sorry but it sounds like you don't like him. I can see why he sees you as abusive. I really think the best step for him would be to put some space between you for now. It could be the making of your relationship. Could he not go away to uni? I think it would be a really positive move for all of you. Give you all chance to reset your relationship.

You have every right to feel hurt. But see this for what it is. Your relationship has reached a crisis point.
Can you live together happily for the next 3 years? Do you need distance in your relationship? Are there mental health issues mixed in there?
I would draw up a plan together, maybe he does leave home, and get some independence. Maybe you will be less frustrated if you are not faced with his behaviour on a daily basis. Either way it sounds like a big step back is needed.

I come from a place of experience. It’s very hard!

If you want to be paid money back, and he’s not earning, don’t give it in the first place. I don’t think you can take it from his student loan. I do think he’s going to need that to move out.

I think it’s really easy to get caught in a relationship loop, so you do need to break that.

You’ll get a lot of judgment on here. Not all teenagers are the same. Only one of mine was extremely hard work. By extreme I mean extreme. The usual swearing and slamming doors was never a problem but by extreme I do mean pushing the rest of the household to their limits. No sleep, constant worry. It’s exhausting.

Distance worked wonders. Now, my child has still not taken personal responsibility and creates chaos everywhere. We are trying to create a different adult relationship. Supportive and not judgemental. This is easier when we are not under the same roof!

Good luck

There is so little light shed on parents being abused by young adults that I'm not surprised by the responses. All abuse is wrong. But the OP is at her wits end obviously. Of course, we are all perfect parents that never ever lose our shit and should make her feel like an abuser for daring to come on here to ask for help.

Kanaloa

the parent could have kicked him out a long time ago. They are trying.
Even a 19 year old should face consequences and nothing in the OP is abusive.

The OP hasn't been strict enough if things have gone that bad, because the teen has got away with far too much for too long.

All the empty fields,

You sound bitter.

As a pp said her parents treated her like this and never once asked what was going on with her, why was she OK.

I'd tread very very carefully here... As I said previously who would choose to this over better things? Who would choose this... Start thinking of him as a human with beads rather than an "investment" you are not getting a return on.

None of this sounds good from either side, but you are the adults here and from experience with teenage boys I know things can get difficult. Sometimes you need to let them fail, step back no matter how difficult and frustrating that is.However resorting to violence is not the answer, nor is confiscating a 17 year olds phone going to go down well.
Going to uni will probably be the making of him, but not if he remains at home and not if you take half his maintenance loan, are you trying to punish him?
Be very carefully that you do not destroy your relationship with him completely, because this is the way things are going.

Pouring water over him is abusive.

Whether you want to hear that or not, it is.

As for the tussles? They probably are too.

Yeah, he’s behaved like an asshole. So have you. And the difference is, you’re the fucking grown ups.

Nothing you’ve described sounds like anything other than normal teenage behaviour.

He would be better off moving into halls, declaring himself estranged - and I guarantee that SF and Uni will class those instances as abusive and accept that he’s estranged.

I know exactly how you feel and you are not abusive. I have a 19 year old DD. She is lazy to the point of absolute raging anger by me. She signed up for a house for next year at Uni (managed to scrape through her bred to get there last year) and put us as guarantors then did nothing to get money to pay for it. No matter what I said she didn't bother with a job to pay for it. We ended up finding her a job and she goes but we give her lift there and back. She is now working every hour she can and will give every penny to us as she has been meant to pay 2 months rent so far that we have had to cover. We will be taking the rest from the maintenance loan. We can't afford to pay her rent and our mortgage and bills. She is so beyond lazy and would do fuck all if I didn't nag and nag at her. She is only just scraping through her degree course and I have said if she doesn't step up the next year she will be dropping out and getting a full time job and we will definitely not be a guarantor again. She is expected to get a job when she goes back and I will go mad if she doesn't. She is an adult and needs to start acting like one. Sorry a bit of a rant there but I completely understand your frustrations xx

@alltheemptyfields

I disagree. I think it is abusive. There is no justification for this type of behaviour in my opinion, and I think it reflects very badly on op.

OPs son in son not being abusive though, he's just not living his life as the OP would wish. As most teenagers don't.

Little be9st. Text the friend and say son is on his way yo stay with you, thank you for being such a supportive friend. Throw his belongings out of the window with a suitcase to put them in. Stop paying his bills. Then leave him alone, for Christ's sake and let him grow up.

So you shove your son, physically grab his phone of him, read his texts, yank his headphones off his head and pour water over him, and you wonder why he describes you as abusive?

@alltheemptyfields

I hope MNHQ will jump quickly on this thread, some of the comments are absolutely vile

and unhelpful!

Yeah, God forbid those of us call the OP out on her abusive behaviour

Re dinner if he can't fit in with your times I'd just expect him to get his own.