Family Lunch Dilemma. 'Hovering'.

[JennieLee]

There's going to be a family reunion - after relaxation of Covid regs - tomorrow.

It will involve self, husband, my older brother and his wife (hosting), my younger brother and my elderly mother (eg 6 of us).

My younger brother has been particularly worried about the risks of Covid. He has had both his vaccinations - as we all have - and has no underlying health conditions. He lives and works alone.

My older brother has a large dining table and a well-ventilated room. He can keep the French windows open while we eat as it is a warm day.

He has declared that for safety reasons he won't sit with the family at the meal, but will instead 'hover' or sit at the breakfast bar to eat.

I find it really hard to eat when somebody is hovering - particularly if they are behind me.

I could cope with eating a very quick informal snack in these conditions. But it's going to be real trial to attempt to sit through a long heavy, supposedly celebratory meal - with hours of hovering.

I don't think anyone else in the family likes the hovering either. It occurred at Xmas and Easter meals when I wasn't present.

But everyone else is very conflict averse. I'm going to be immediately characterised as the 'difficult' one, if I ask him to sit with us.

Any thoughts?

Why isn't your mum's bathroom set up for an elderly person, given she's in that kind of residential setting?

Because it's owner occupied and she would have to pay for adaptations.

She is pretty much incapable of organising any change now. Too tired. Too scared she won't know how to work anything new.

There are wide passages, pull cord alarms etc , as part of the build. But other things need to be decided on/installed by occupiers.

@JennieLee

Exact same situation as my Mum and my answer remains the same.

I think the problem is that as mental capacity deteriorates people want two incompatible things,

So my mother may wish to be independent, not to make any changes, etc.

She may also wish to stay safe, while having diministed capacity to assess risk.

She has very clearly and consistently expressed that her over-riding wish is to be able to stay in her current accommodation as long as possible.

This is why my mother arranged Power of Attorney. She could see friends neglecting themselves and putting themselves at risk. She said she didn't want this to happen to her.

A serious fall would jeopardise this, because, at this point medical staff will take change of a situation and not discharge her from hospital - unless they felt she can be discharged into an appropriately safe situation.

So I do feel a sense of responsibility to encourage her to take steps that would minimise this risk. And to encourage my brothers, whose opinions she respects more.

Yup..and in this case, the judgement is made by behaviour. Its really easy...been there... to say she wants this so therefore she must want that.....choosing denial and avoidance is also a valid choice and one all of us sometimes make. Honestly, its not the first time I have heard that argument and its not a valid one. And, as I said, even if she loses capacity, decisions must be made on the basis of what the person would want if they had capacity. And yes its painful.

You said attendance allowance, is she short of money? It doesn't have to be spent on care, she can buy gin with it if she likes!

godmum I agree it's complex, but having hung out on Talking Point I'm not sure you're 100% right on this.

Oh ps, if she has capacity, she can self discharge fom hosital too

Having reread the op have seen it says 'or at the breakfast bar' so I think you just say to your brother, please sit at the breakfast bar while we're all eating.

@HelloDulling

He feels irrationally uncomfortable about sitting at the table You feel irrationally uncomfortable about him not sitting at the table.

You are both being unreasonable, so perhaps one of you should cancel.

I find so many MN thread's where people have so little to worry about that quite stupid worries are magnified.

This one is worthy of a prize for petty ridiculousness and so unreasonable for both hover-man and OP. I actually through it might a tr**l thing, you know the word you cannot suggest.

First world problems eh. I wonder if in the first world people just look for things to worry about/moan about/be anxious about.

@JennieLee

My mother lives approximately 2 hours drive away using an invariably busy motorway - unless one gets up really early!. She does not have a garden and has very limited mobility so meeting in some rural place or a pub outdoors has not really been an option, until the recent relaxation of rules.

She also gets tired very easily now. So there are some advantages in seeing her alongside other family members/or at some one else's house. This means if she starts to flag she can drift off, without feeling the responsibility of hosting. (It also means I'm not doing 4 hrs of motorway driving for what is essentially 30 minutes of interaction.)

Over the last month, I've also had a (needed) holiday and visited a new grandchild, so this has been more or less the first weekend when a visit has been possible.

She lives in a development for the elderly - independently occupied flats - where the managament is still trying to minimise visits by people from outside 'bubbles' in order to protect frail residents. (I live in a city where Covid cases are rising, and obviously could carry infection despite having been vaccinated . So meeting at my brother's nearby seemed like a good option.

Assuming you are able bodied and generally well (which I presume you are if you’ve been on holiday etc) I still don’t understand why you can’t get up early in a morning and visit your mum. The long gaps in seeing her may explain why your own mum feels that she is “hosting” when her daughter is in her home.

Go for a walk after the 30 min visit to give you a longer break before the drive back - or visit regularly for a full day so that your mum starts to get a sense of a close family member in her home rather than a visitor she needs to stay awake to host

As someone who has kids, works full time and also bubbles with and looks after my elderly mum who is also 2 hours away, I do find it astonishing that you would ask your brother to invite you to a bbq so you could see your mum. If he has been generally looking out for her all this time I can see why he may not have replied to you on that.

The hovering is a separate issue and a distraction from the main point which is that, COVID regulations at her flats permitting, you need to put proper arrangements in place so that you can help with and regularly visit your mum without her feeling that she is hosting a guest

Your brothers and your mum will then likely better accept your input into her safety and care if you are a more regular part of her life.

On a practical note an OT visit can be very useful in the first instance to get some aids in place - or in the meantime you can buy a sturdy bathroom shower chair in Argos and remove the flimsy one - there are lots of quick wins to help with safety that are common sense even before the OT advises

I also find that suggesting a “three week” trial of a carer visiting can be ideal, as after the three weeks your mum may have started to form a bond with her, and will make her own decision to keep her on. From my own experience of a mum with very similar health problems, having even one care visit a day for the morning bath or shower time, massively reduces the risk of a nasty fall

I hope some of this is helpful

I think the OP has had a hard time off a few people on here. Her mother is in her mid 90s so there is a good chance that the OP is anything from 60 to late 70s - she has mentioned that she visited a new grandchild.

My parents are in their mid 70s and frankly couldn't cope with "a long heavy, supposedly celebratory meal", let alone one where someone is likely to be carrying on a shouting monologue behind them. She's either approaching retirement age or is already retired and is still worrying about her elderly mother's care.

Of course your poor mum is incapable at her age of organising change or bathroom adaptations - you need to do that for her.
Explain (or ask your brother to explain) that this will be how she gets to stay in this accommodation for as long as possible - by agreeing to this bathroom adaptation that you will arrange and organise for her

@JennieLee

godmum I agree it's complex, but having hung out on Talking Point I'm not sure you're 100% right on this.

every different case is a matter for different judgement and I can only comment broadly from what the OP has said. Good website here.

argh....link www.scie.org.uk/mca/practice/best-interests

My parents are in their mid 70s and frankly couldn't cope with "a long heavy, supposedly celebratory meal", let alone one where someone is likely to be carrying on a shouting monologue behind them. She's either approaching retirement age or is already retired and is still worrying about her elderly mother's care.

I’m not far off my 70s and would enjoy a long celebratory meal every day of the week if it was possible. I, too, was approaching retirement age when I was my parents’ carer. It’s what happens when people live long lives. OP’s older brother is hosting said meal, all she has to do is show up and eat it.

Thanks godmum.

Shall take al look. Was discussing with Spouse - lawyer whose work involved different vulnerable client group. We had POA for his father whose increasing dementia meant having to step in gradually -= and ultimately taking over his affairs.

Happily there both my father in law's sons co-operated very well in terms of advising their Dad and ultimately gaining his consent as he needed more help and support.

What seemed to emerge from the conversation is that the underlying principles may be reasonably clear. The devil is in the detail of putting things into practice in individual cases. Capacity may fluctuate from day to day and/or be there in respect of some issues but not of others. Similarly a person's wishes may not be consistent. They may be strongly expressed yet contradictory.

I think the poster who said that my mother is far more comfortable with my two brothers' laissez-faire approach to her increasing frailty and vulnerability, is absolutely correct! As ever, I am the family misfit.

All of that yes.......In my job I wasn't on the legal end but the health and community end...and as I said went through it with my own mother. Its not easy even when siblings all agree, andvery painful to not be able to do what you see as right.....but the alternative......where someone can take over someone's life and run it according to what they think is right.....not to be thought of.......I know that's not your wish or intention but I have seen families try to do it and can see why the guidance and the law must come down on the side of presumed capacity and the choice of the individual.....which doesn't help you :(

Just sit outside.

The long gaps in seeing her may explain why your own mum feels that she is “hosting” when her daughter is in her home.

If someone doesn’t live with me, they are being hosted in my home. Family or not.

How did it go, JennieLee?

Younger brother sat down with us! Much relief all round.

Mother very very wobbly in terms of balance - but seemed fairly alert which was good.

@dudsville

Just to nail my flag to the post, what I think is that you're irritated with your brother and looking to stop a behavior of his that annoys you. The behaviour of his isn't so odd, just a little quirky.

This.

You’re being ridiculous OP. You’re making a problem where there isn’t one. Just eat your meal and ignore where everyone else sits. Stop being so uptight.

Dear Untred,

As Mumsnet likes to say 'Do you mean to be so rude?'

Probably the answer is yes. What a sad, miserable life you must have!

Jennie

Dear Jennie, I understand you have very unique rules for how others must behave when in your vicinity but I can confirm that there was nothing rude in my post. You’re being very silly. Glad you had a nice meal and everyone sat where you wanted them to. Sad, miserable? Projection?

Uhtred

Every other member of my family - my elderly mother, my older brother and my sister in law has been negatively affected by my younger brother's behaviour. My mother has been particularly distressed

Some Mumsnet people are lovely. They share practical advice, offer insights, support and encouragement.

Others seem to post with the sole aim of causing distress.

It's usually pretty clear which camp people are in
.

Others seem to post with the sole aim of causing distress.

And sadly some MNers live with the sole aim of causing distress.

And to be clear, there was nothing distressing, rude, sad or miserable in my post to you. You were being very silly insisting that you couldn’t possibly eat with someone not at the table. You didn’t like my comment, which is absolutely fine, but your hyperbolic responses are simply daft. You aren’t distressed. Behave.