Should DH move abroad for job alone or should we join him? Dilemma.

[insertrandomusernamehere]

DH has been offered a job abroad in a Middle Eastern country to start in a few weeks and he’s accepted. As happy as I am for him; I’m absolutely terrified of what life is going to be like alone, raising our very young DC (18m and almost 3 year old). Both DC are at nursery PT and will be doing longer hours from September when I’d planned to return to work. This job offer has completely thrown me. It means changing our lives entirely- the children having to settle at a new nursery and adjust to a new way of life is panicking me the most. Or, maybe I’m projecting and am worrying about how I’ll cope in an environment/culture that is materialistic/superficial/misogynistic?

My plans for September also included taking driving lessons and becoming a bit more independent with a car for my sake and the DC. Husband is desperate for us to move but I’m not sure what to do. Should I throw caution to the wind, move us all out with him (pack our lives into boxes by the 2nd of July) and see how life works out for us all? Or, should I wait it out and let my husband settle there first, pass probation and get the ‘lay of the land’ before we join him? Or, should I stay put with the DC and we can take turns visiting one another every half term/end of term? The latter would mean less disruption for DC (my absolute priority) since they’ll still have their nursery space and key workers and other children they’re familiar with and would also mean I can focus on myself a bit too- I’m itching to get back to work. I’m scared I won’t cope alone but I won’t know until I try it, will I?

One of my biggest worries is that I’ve had horrendous PND since the birth of my older DC and I’ve needed my husband’s support to get things done and look after the children when I’ve not had the energy to get out of bed. I’m scared, left to my own devices, I might crumble. Massively. Having said that, he’ll be working silly hours in his new job so it’s not as if he’ll be able to help me out there BUT nannies/house help is cheap I’m the ME so I’d be able to buy in help? But, then I’ll worry they’re out of the British system/way of doing things and how that will negatively impact them when we come back? Argh, as you can tell, I’m struggling with all this massively. Can someone shed any light on living abroad with young children? Or even guide me on what I should do next? I’m so, so lost right now.

Apologies for the garbled post. I’ve been trying to sleep for ages but sleep just isn’t coming right now because of my anxiety around this impending move.

@Normaigai, this has nothing to do with the fact the father is muslim. Or is a citizen of the country .

It’s all about the HABITUAL country if residence if the children.

Once the dcs have lived for a while in that place, it’s their home. The father has as much right as the mother to have a say on where thye live. And for them to move out of a country.
Courts will not let a mother (or father) take the children away brith from their habitual residence AND the other parent if the other parent says NO.
That’s why you end up with mother’s stuck in a country that isn’t theirs for years and years.

Eg as a French citizen, I wouldn’t be able to take my 3yo back to France once I’ve split up with their father. It doesn’t matter what citizenship the father has, where the children are born etc… it’s simply that their dad would be in the U.K., they are living in the U.K. the fact I’d want ‘to go back home’ doesn’t take precedence.

@insertrandomusernamehere, I’d take any comment on this thread about what you can or can’t do once you are living there with a pinch of salt. If you reworked this could become a possibility, please take some legal advice BEFIRE going there.

I'd need my husbands consent to take the children out of the country as it is since they have his surname only (I kept my maiden name after marriage).

I'd need my husbands consent to take the children out of the country as it is since they have his surname only (I kept my maiden name after marriage)

Nothing to do with surnames. You need the consent of all parties with PR, whatever their names. The opposite also applies, he can’t take them out the country without your consent, even if they share a surname.

Just a note on the education in the ME. I don't think you should write it off from that point of view since there are some excellent schools, and most ex pat's will have their children in private international schools. However your DH doesn't have a package that includes this so you would have to pay for them to go to these schools.

I'd need my husbands consent to take the children out of the country as it is since they have his surname only (I kept my maiden name after marriage)

You need to familiarise yourself with The Hague convention.

[quote KeepingTrack]@Normaigai, this has nothing to do with the fact the father is muslim. Or is a citizen of the country .

It’s all about the HABITUAL country if residence if the children.

Once the dcs have lived for a while in that place, it’s their home. The father has as much right as the mother to have a say on where thye live. And for them to move out of a country.
Courts will not let a mother (or father) take the children away brith from their habitual residence AND the other parent if the other parent says NO.
That’s why you end up with mother’s stuck in a country that isn’t theirs for years and years.

Eg as a French citizen, I wouldn’t be able to take my 3yo back to France once I’ve split up with their father. It doesn’t matter what citizenship the father has, where the children are born etc… it’s simply that their dad would be in the U.K., they are living in the U.K. the fact I’d want ‘to go back home’ doesn’t take precedence.

@insertrandomusernamehere, I’d take any comment on this thread about what you can or can’t do once you are living there with a pinch of salt. If you reworked this could become a possibility, please take some legal advice BEFIRE going there.[/quote]
You are assuming that Middle East law works the same way as English law. Religion is everything to do with it in the Middle East.

In most (all?) countries in the ME OP can get on a plane to the UK with her kids and there is very little that the DH can do about it. If he gets in there first, he may be successful in getting a court order banning her leaving with the kids, but he has to get in there first and if he's not Muslim there is no guarantee he'd get the order. In most countries in the Middle East the courts are unlikely to get involved in a custody dispute between two non-nationals unless one is Muslim (as the law sometimes say Shariah law applies). There are ways a father can fight this but it is hard and most won't bother.

If the OP gets to the UK the DH had no means to force the children's return to the UK. This is different from countries that are signatories to the Hague Convention. If you ran with your child to France, your husband could take action in the French courts for her to be returned. That doesn't apply if someone runs from the Middle East to the UK.

I can't answer for the whole Middle East, but if the father is Muslim in the UAE (and gets in there first in the jurisdictional battle) then he has the sole right to determine where the child lives amongst other things. The rights for the mother, particularly of a boy over 7 (?) are dismal. This is why religion matters.

@MareofBeasttown

Sorry quoted the wrong person. I was going to roll my eyes at the idea of colonialism helping diversity in the UK. Yeah no thanks.

That’s a rather vague statement. The roots of modern U.K racism lie in colonialism. Before the whole idea of ethnic minorities there was the hatred of anyone not English. Before that open contempt for as pp mentioned the ‘lower classes’. You can’t have a discussion about racism (and by extension diversity and equality) without bringing colonialism into it. A lot of people see it as the U.K’s responsibility because of the damage they have done to other countries over the decades. Including my own. Again a complex discussion. Meanwhile other countries don’t really care, according to them they didn’t steal from other people like the West or pretend to care about human rights like the West so they will just do what they like on their own land, some people have to be at the bottom of the heap and that’s just life. Sorry for derailing thread I’ll stop here 😂

I wouldn't do it.
I agree with I would tell your husband to go alone and review in 6 months. Meanwhile, focus on your career.
Give yourself space and career/financial options.

I'd only move abroad for a DP if our relationship was secure and happy, and to a country I liked the sound of – and if it's true what you imply, that you'd only really have shopping to entertain yourself, I wouldn't fancy that.

In most (all?) countries in the ME OP can get on a plane to the UK with her kids and there is very little that the DH can do about it

Not true. It’s becoming increasingly more difficult in any of the countries signed up to the haugue convention to get through immigration control without two parents being present or one of the parents having a letter stating the patent can travel with the children.

I really do wish people wouldn’t post without actually knowing the ins and outs of situations.

Moving overseas needs a lot more planning when you have kids than just up and leaving in a few weeks.

If the salary is not great I would proceed with caution. Have you looked at shipping costs, price of rentals, cars, nursery fees - does he know if it's actually financially doable? If you're not being offered any help with relocating it sounds like it could be v stressful.

I would normally say go for it. It could be an amazing experience and depending on where you are in the ME there will likely be a big expat community.

But it doesn't sound like you've both sat down and discussed the pros and cons together. It has to be a joint decision. It's very concerning that he has accepted the job without properly consulting you.

@insertrandomusernamehere

I haven’t read the whole thread so feel free to ignore but we were in exactly the same situation 5 years ago. DH also had to go to a ME country for work. My older DS was about to start High School so I didn’t want to uproot him so we decided that he would go alone and myself and the boys would stay here much to everyone’s shock.

It actually worked really well for us. DH used to work in London (we live in Norfolk) so wouldn’t get hone until 9pm most nights and would have to travel at the drop of a hat so we figured we’d actually see each other more in some ways. It was supposed to be 2 years…but he ended up doing 3 years in KSA and a year in Dubai (which is like my second home) before finally coming home 3 weeks before Covid hit last year.

I can’t actually bring myself to read the whole thread as I imagine it’s full of people questioning how any relationship can survive that but feel free to PM if you want to chat and feel I could help. DH is now working from home and travelling over there when he can. We have had the most amazing holidays. DH ended up having to get residency over there which meant he could only be in the U.K. for 90 days a year…90 days plus holidays over there and other places is quite a lot if you have a reasonable employer so it ended up with us seeing him at least every 6 weeks. I likened it to being an army wife with non of the worry (no disrespect to any army wives).

What I think, and admittedly, not being an expert, is that you can rule out the factor of fun and adventure. You are not in the right frame of mind to jump into adventure, and the unknown is tricky when you have young children. You have to put the little ones first, and risk will affect them adversely.

Surely, having debt is an issue in the ME and treated as a crime, if everything goes wrong?( Sorry, I'm no expert). Possibly, regardless of where you acquired and accumulated the debt. Anyway, in Britain, you have social security and the school to help signpost you to help if your little one has some additional needs, or you don't feel strong.

I hate to say it, but being very cynical, your partner might be thinking that, yes things between you are not great, so if you and the kids are with him, under his eye, you won't start divorce proceedings, or speak to friends, who, like many respondents on this thread, will urge you to consider your own wellbeing and needs ( and put the kids first) and think independently.

If he thinks that, the way things are going, you might split anyway, it might focus his attention on the annoyance of this and how to make sure he is not negatively impacted by any split. He might be trying to get more income because he thinks you might split: goodness forbid, I hope he isn't thinking that if you divorced, he'd have more rights there and power. Maybe he thinks you'd take the kids if you split in the UK, and he'd not get to see them on the terms he wants. We don't know him, and only you do, but even to thrust this surprise job offer on you, doesn't sound like an open, collaborative person.

I don't think that men think that they won't be able to cope with their own children for long periods, without their wife's help, if they meet a new partner who might have extended family to help. You just can't predict the future.

But enduring awfulness feels worse than renouncing the heights of experience and adventure. So opt for what you know and safety.

Posters sound genuinely worried for you, and not just giving their opinion. I am worried for you too.

I lived n the ME and loved it and normally encourage people to move for the adventure but in your case I would urge caution. It's expensive to live there and that's with the company usually paying all school and accommodation fees. Being an e pay is great but it can also put a strain on the best of marriages

I was going to say .. yes .. go .. have an adventure! .. but reading further down and seeing your marriage isn't great I'd say there is no way I would go . I'm very happily married now for the second time . When my first marriage was in trouble there is no way on earth I would've moved overseas with him. You will be so isolated. StY here and get a job if I were you .. best of luck with whatever you decide though.

I'm not sure what you think the parenting style is out there

Everyone quibbling about the father being Muslim or not should keep in mind that he can convert just by saying so and filling out a few forms. The courts will consider this laudable, and aren't likely to scrutinize his motives or sincerity.

Thanks again for the replies everyone. It's made my decision concrete in that, I'm going to wait here to see how things pan out for him out there and really work on myself in the mean time. In an ideal world, we'd both be much younger and child free and both work out there but we have children to think of. If he likes it in the ME, he can stay and we can meet every 6 weeks- us there or him here.

And, yes- I do have certain stereotypes of life in the ME and that's through having ME friends and friends and family who have worked and lived out there. Apologies if I've run with those tropes and offended anyone.

Also, I've clearly not explained the salary situation well. Husband is a high earner so had a decent salary to begin with in the UK so the £2K extra (yearly!) is not enough to tempt anyone to uproot their lives and move to the other side of the world- it's the tax free salary that was the draw and which is why we both agreed he should go. I'm just not tempted by the expat life to follow him. Maybe being away will be good for him. Give him a chance to take stock of his life and come to the realisation that his life was richer for having us in it or maybe it'll do the opposite. Either way, you can't force anyone to stay together and if our marriage ends, so be it.

As for the Muslim issue- I don't get how that's relevant or how that might impact us. Can anyone explain.

@Diverseopinions-

Surely, having debt is an issue in the ME and treated as a crime, if everything goes wrong?( Sorry, I'm no expert). Possibly, regardless of where you acquired and accumulated the debt.

Our debt is credit card debt and accrued in the UK in the first lockdown. He was between jobs and had had lots of interviews in early February and got through to the final stage with a number of companies but when lockdown hit, they all battened down the hatches and went quiet on him. We struggled for 9 months with him not being able to get a job and having to rely on our modest savings and credit cards to survive.

Also, I know the man I married- he wants an easy life. He's been WFH (when he did eventually get a job) until now and realises how tough family life with very young children can be! He wants to be star dad and will do anything to be that without putting in the work!

For 2 k extra per year, I am not sure I would move to the end of the road. I am afraid it seems that your husband is trying to flee family life. Let him ( because you can't stop him). And go back to work yourself.

As for the Muslim issue- I don't get how that's relevant or how that might impact us. Can anyone explain.

Ideally, it won't. But in most Muslim countries, the default is that the father gets the children in a divorce. Even if the mother gets physical custody, the father can still prevent her from taking them out of the country. Some apply this to all couples, and some apply it only to Muslim couples and have other rules for couples of other faiths. But even if whatever country you're thinking of is in the latter category, all your husband would need to do to be considered Muslim is say some words and fill out some paperwork. Once that happened, he'd be (officially) a Muslim man married to a non-Muslim woman, and as such, he would automatically get custody. Just because you don't think he wants custody doesn't mean he wouldn't recognize the strategic value of having the right to take the kids away. Even if he doesn't, divorcing you under the rules applicable to Muslim couples in Muslim countries would leave you much worse off financially than if he'd done it in the UK.

Good to see your updates OP, & I am pleased & relieved for you.

Frankly, you have enough to manage in the UK, without adding extra work & stress to you & the kids with any move (even a trip at this stage - it seems unnecessary prior to probation period) to the ME.

You may find this enforced marital break becomes a short term positive, as you continue to access support for MH, work on getting a driving licence, & get back to your career.

Meantime, DH has the chance to accrue additional income (if all works out as he wishes re: his job), & I imagine his MH & self-esteem as well as yours will benefit from paying off the outstanding UK debt.

Longer term, finding your resiliance again after the PND & all the strains of debt & marital difficulties is of major, major benefit to you, & whatever happens with the marriage will be easier to deal with when you have built yourself up a little more, & have the confidence that comes of dealing with your own stuff in your own language on familiar turf. That's what your kids need - not some half-cooked plan to spend what will feel like aeons to them, cooped up in an apartment with a stressed & demotivated mum.

FWIW, you sound like a contemplative individual who has her head screwed on. Focus 100% on what is best for you & the kids. Let DH manage his own emotional needs while he pursues the ex-pat opportunity he desires - whether you get back together eventually is a totally different issue, & one you will be able to deal with more comfortably either way, once you have the satisfaction & confidence you will get when you are cracking on with the goal-achieving plans described so clearly in your OP.

Very best wishes to you.

OP if you have horrendous PND, 2 very young kids and a new job to juggle, then the emotional fallout of only seeing your DH for short visits, then the emotional fallout of dealing with 2 kids desperate for daddy, then all the crazy travel, then everything to juggle here alone, it's going to be horrendous and overwhelming. It'll put a lot of strain on the marriage, too.

Definitely go and treat it as a family adventure. As others have said, you can all always move back as a family if it's clear to you all it isn't a viable option. Your kids are obviously your priority and you sound like a wonderful mum, but keeping them in the nursery where they are or moving so they can see their daddy every day and be saved years of crazy travel, tears when daddy leaves and won't be back for weeks and why doesn't he want to be with us, etc etc - there's no competition there. They'll settle in a new nursery fast enough.

This should be the rule that everyone lives her life by:

@Polkadots2021 I’m Not sure you have read the OPs later posts.

[quote Poorlykitten]@Polkadots2021 I’m Not sure you have read the OPs later posts.[/quote]
Exactly - really don’t think there’s going to be any family adventure happening.

OP, you would be crazy to go, think you’d be putting yourself in an incredibly insecure position. Glad it sounds like you’ve decided to stay put for now at least.