Do you think lesbian is defined by sex or gender?

[neroforte]

So, if someone was of male sex, but identified as a woman, and they dated a woman, would it be a lesbian or straight relationship? Would the bio woman still be considered a lesbian for dating the woman indentified male?

My sexuality is based on sex and that is true for many people. We have terms that exist to describe those orientations.

There are obviously people whose attraction template is based on gender expression. Those people should be accepted for who they are, but they should stop trying to co-opt existing terminology. Instead of trying to make lesbian mean attracted to people who identify as women, why not find a term that describes that actual attraction template?

It’s offensive to try to distort the meaning of existing terms for groups that just recently gained equal rights in many countries and are still oppressed in many others.

The quizzing was wrong.
But the friend was with a sperm giver and that can produce a baby.
Two women don't make babies.
Two men don't make babies.
She knew she was having normal sex and wanted to pretend, being questioned upset her lies.

@Ijustreallywantacat, what word do you use for female sexed people who are attracted only to other female sexed people?

Lesbians are same-sex attracted. So, females attracted to other females.
Gynephilia is the attraction to femininity

And I’m in disbelief that young women have been so brainwashed to welcome in their abuse and erasure.

You're welcome to believe that. I disagree, being one of the women you're talking about. I don't feel abused or erased, but whatever. You are welcome to believe it.

Regardless, do you think that the described passage was an okay thing to do? Do you think its okay to interrogate people until they squirm? To ask people if their partner has a dick? And how they have sex? A STRANGER?

what word do you use for female sexed people who are attracted only to other female sexed people?

Lesbian! But then I'm one of those people who is happy to include gender in my definition too...though personally I don't have a gender. Well aware that people think differently, that's valid too.

If someone wants to be in a relationship with a Trans person fine.
But why distort the true.
Your with a feminine male, your not with a female.
In the words of Shakespeare. "A rose by any other name would smell as sweet." Renaming a penis to anything else does not stop it being a penis.

@Ijustreallywantacat

what word do you use for female sexed people who are attracted only to other female sexed people?

Lesbian! But then I'm one of those people who is happy to include gender in my definition too...though personally I don't have a gender. Well aware that people think differently, that's valid too.

So two intact male people could form a lesbian relationship?

If someone wants to be in a relationship with a Trans person fine.
But why distort the true.
Your with a feminine male, your not with a female.
In the words of Shakespeare. "A rose by any other name would smell as sweet." Renaming a penis to anything else does not stop it being a penis.

It's true for you, it's not true for me.
I'm not going to start redefining my life, nor my friend's lives, for the sake of YOUR opinion.
Words have changed throughout history for good reason and they will continue to do so.
Marriage used to be defined as between a man and a woman. You'd hear the same things trotted out about 'why can't they call it something different?'. Thank God that changed.

I know many transwomen, I do not know of all of their genital configurations, but I don't care. They are well aware they were born male, and are technically so, but they also believe in the concept of gender. It's not something I believe in for myself, but I know my opinion is not the be all and end all and I'm happy to accept that they are feeling things that I can't understand.

@Marguerite2000 you haven’t answered my question! Im genuinely interested in how you feel that woman should categorise herself, given that the implication of all you say is she cannot be a lesbian herself despite being born female, considering herself a lesbian, and only ever having sex with people with vaginas. This is a real example, so please explain what you think her sexual orientation should be.

It's true for you. Your own words.

Meaning you know . Thank you.

So two intact male people could form a lesbian relationship?

Sure! That is a not uncommon situation in LGBT+ circles. You may not call them that, or mutter something under your breath, and you have that right. Free country!
Absolutely nothing you can do about the fact that they might call themselves lesbians though.

It's true for you. Your own words.

Meaning you know . Thank you.

Know what? I'm confused.

Words have changed throughout history for good reason and they will continue to do so.

What word do you suggest for female sexed people and not male ones, or male sexed people and not female ones? There are times when it's important to be able to distinguish between them.

It would be lovely to be all chilled about this and not let any of it matter and everyone just be them. The thing is that this takes mutual respect, and acceptance that people who are and wish to view themselves as homosexual need to be able to be recognisable as a group, with a word that refers to them, to have protection and recognition under law. And it needs to not just be 'don't tell other people what to call themselves, we're all modern now and have moved past such boundaries', but also be 'don't tell women who want to define themselves as female homosexuals and have exclusive relationships based on sex class beliefs and definitions that they must convert and overcome their prejudice and stop gatekeeping their vaginas to people who wish to access them'.

Because that is conversion therapy, stunning disrespect for others boundaries and beliefs, and age old demands that women's bodies are for the care and pleasure of biologically male people and not to do with their own choices and pleasure.

This lack of respect is one of the many reasons homosexual women are getting a bit firm about boundaries and not feeling too chilled and modern at the moment.

What word do you suggest for female sexed people and not male ones, or male sexed people and not female ones? There are times when it's important to be able to distinguish between them.

People often use AMAB (Assigned male at birth) or AFAB, biological sex, cisgender (sorry!) or transgender, etc. There are plenty of terms its just that mumsnet tend not to like them...

@Ijustreallywantacat

So two intact male people could form a lesbian relationship?

Sure! That is a not uncommon situation in LGBT+ circles. You may not call them that, or mutter something under your breath, and you have that right. Free country!
Absolutely nothing you can do about the fact that they might call themselves lesbians though.

Yes, I'm aware I have that right, thank you. I'm also aware that I can't stop two male sexed people from calling themselves lesbians, and that nobody can stop me from calling myself Ming the Merciless. It will, however, be important at times that people, or at least the law, recognises that whatever I might call myself, I'm not really able to command the nation of Mongo...

@Ijustreallywantacat

What word do you suggest for female sexed people and not male ones, or male sexed people and not female ones? There are times when it's important to be able to distinguish between them.

People often use AMAB (Assigned male at birth) or AFAB, biological sex, cisgender (sorry!) or transgender, etc. There are plenty of terms its just that mumsnet tend not to like them...

What, you mean like others don't like the terms "man" and "woman", even when used alongside "transwoman", "transman" and "non binary" for those people? Why not?

@Ijustreallywantacat

what word do you use for female sexed people who are attracted only to other female sexed people?

Lesbian! But then I'm one of those people who is happy to include gender in my definition too...though personally I don't have a gender. Well aware that people think differently, that's valid too.

You can include gender in your definition but it doesn't make it valid.

Rachel Dolezal fooled every one in to thinking she was black but she was white. Just because she identifies as being black certainly does not mean she is. This women took high appointed roles that should have gone to actual black women.

Dolezalw.nhpr.org/post/former-naacp-leader-rachel-dolezal-speaks-out-says-she-identifies-black#stream/0

language really does matter

There are plenty of terms its just that mumsnet tend not to like them...

I thought it was important to use the language that people identify with, feel comfortable with and choose for themselves?

You can include gender in your definition but it doesn't make it valid.

You can include only sex in your definition but that doesn't make it valid.

@Ijustreallywantacat

You can include gender in your definition but it doesn't make it valid.

You can include only sex in your definition but that doesn't make it valid.

Why can't a woman be an adult human of the reproductive sex class capable of producing ova?

@Ijustreallywantacat

You can include gender in your definition but it doesn't make it valid.

You can include only sex in your definition but that doesn't make it valid.

Biology and the legal definition does though.

Can white women turn it black women if they identify as black?

Yes, I'm aware I have that right, thank you. I'm also aware that I can't stop two male sexed people from calling themselves lesbians, and that nobody can stop me from calling myself Ming the Merciless. It will, however, be important at times that people, or at least the law, recognises that whatever I might call myself, I'm not really able to command the nation of Mongo...

Struggling to think of even a hypothetical example under the law where it would matter if a transgender woman called themselves a lesbian and was in a relationship with another transgender woman...?

Are you suggesting that transgender people calling themselves lesbians should be unlawful...?

Glad we agree that people are free to have their own definitions in every day life though. Hopefully we agree that whatever our definitions are that we should treat people with respect, (at least to their face!)

@NanaNorasNaughtyKnickers

Hi *@donquixotedelamancha*

Hard questions!

Would it matter more if someone wanted to describe themselves as black or disabled when they weren't?

Those two things are quite good examples, because they're not that easy to define either. Have a go. There's a lot of room for argument round the edges.

What about if I want to self-define as Lesbian to access targeted funding or a particular award, is that OK?
I don't really like the sound of that. But what if a biological woman of ambiguous sexuality claims she's a lesbian, just doesn't have a partner? There isn't really an objective definition. There's no blood test. All lesbians self-identity.

@NanaNorasNaughtyKnickers

Those two things are quite good examples, because they're not that easy to define either. Have a go. There's a lot of room for argument round the edges.

I'm happy to discuss liminality of definitions later but really it's a bit silly to change the subject.

I'll rephrase: Is it OK for an (unequivocally) non-black person to self-describe as black? Is it OK for an (unequivocally) able bodied person to self-describe as having a specific physical disability? Or is there something unique about Lesbianism that makes it more acceptable?

I don't really like the sound of that. But what if a biological woman of ambiguous sexuality claims she's a lesbian, just doesn't have a partner? There isn't really an objective definition. There's no blood test. All lesbians self-identity.

So you don't like the idea of a man claiming funding or awards targeted at Lesbians, presumably then we need a definition of who can?

But what if a biological woman of ambiguous sexuality claims she's a lesbian, just doesn't have a partner? There isn't really an objective definition.

There is a pretty objective definition (a homosexual female) but some people want to change that definition, or say that there should be no definition. We can always use more words to explain complexity but that's different from obliterating meaning altogether.

There's no blood test. All lesbians self-identity.

Of course. Context is king (and in most contexts it doesn't matter how people self-describe- the world is messy place which often relies on people's honesty) but for the purposes of public policy if we say the word Lesbian has no defined meaning then that has profound implications.