Active discussions

Meet the Other Phone. Child-safe in minutes.

Meet the Other Phone.
Child-safe in minutes.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Talk
Chat

Join the discussion and chat with other Mumsnetters about everyday life, relationships and parenting.

Original poster

Do you think lesbian is defined by sex or gender?

366 replies

neroforte · 16/06/2021 15:13

So, if someone was of male sex, but identified as a woman, and they dated a woman, would it be a lesbian or straight relationship? Would the bio woman still be considered a lesbian for dating the woman indentified male?

OP posts:
Marguerite2000 · 16/06/2021 18:08

@PurpleyBlue

Marguerite2000 I don't think I can use "woman with a penis" though? It would upset someone one way or the other.
There's no such thing as a 'woman with a penis'. I believe trans woman is the correct term. Man/woman Trans man/trans woman covers it.
Ijustreallywantacat · 16/06/2021 18:08

Isn't it rude for males to ask out lesbians in the first place?

It's not rude for anyone to ask anyone out. Pushing it is rude/harassment. But that's true for anyone.

I was calling myself a lesbian for a time in my twenties when I was figuring myself out. I say TWAW and was/am surrounded by a very diverse group of LGBT people so I don't mind in the slightest. As long as everyone is respectful, then asking questions isn't an issue.

Doyoumind · 16/06/2021 18:11

I think the sad thing is that dating apps, lesbian groups etc have largely been pushed to define lesbian by gender, with the result they are overrun by lesbians with penises and it's almost impossible to have anything lesbian that is female only.

Only a tiny propertion of 'lesbians' born with a penis have transitional surgery.

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 16/06/2021 18:12

[quote Shamoo]@Marguerite2000 so a woman who has only ever had sex with people with vaginas, who continues to have sex with her wife who has a vagina, is not a lesbian because the wife was born male but fully transitioned before they got together? What is her sexual orientation then, is she now straight despite only ever having had sex with people with vaginas?[/quote]
Can surgery turn a spare kidney into a functioning heart for someone who needs a heart transplant?

The vagina is not just a random hole! It is a tube surrounded by muscle, and its function is to provide an exit from the uterus. It has unique physiology of its own.

A post-op natal male transsexual has a vaginal vault or neo-vagina. (And I wish them well!) But they do not have vaginas. Surgical origami changes the external shape and appearance of their organs, it does not change their nature.

A kidney cannot be folded into a heart, and male genitalia do not get folded into female genitalia.

Marguerite2000 · 16/06/2021 18:16

[quote Shamoo]@Marguerite2000 so a woman who has only ever had sex with people with vaginas, who continues to have sex with her wife who has a vagina, is not a lesbian because the wife was born male but fully transitioned before they got together? What is her sexual orientation then, is she now straight despite only ever having had sex with people with vaginas?[/quote]
Eh?
You do realise it's impossible to change sex, right? If you bear that in mind it makes it much simpler.
If someone is 'born male' they remain male for the rest of their life, no matter what medical intervention they undergo. Of course they may choose to adopt a social and legal identity of a female, which is fine.

NeedNewKnees · 16/06/2021 18:18

If a lesbian has sex with a transwoman she may still regard herself as a lesbian, but I would regard her as either bisexual or pansexual.

Nowt wrong with being bisexual, I am myself.

It’s like a vegan who has Parmesan or a vegetarian who eats bacon. Call yourself what you like but don’t expect others to regard you in the same light.

Sniv · 16/06/2021 18:20

I have two X chromosomes and I'm a lesbian. I'd never date someone with a penis; I'm just not interested.

That said, I don't care who uses the term 'lesbian' - it's not like they're running out of membership cards for the accredited lesbian guild. If you really feel like that's the term that's right for you, go ahead.

If someone accused me of having a genital fetish for not dating transwomen, I guess I'd own it. However, I've been involved a lot in our local LGBT scene for years no one has ever accused me of that. All of the transwomen I have knowingly met have never been anything but cool, normal people to me. Some of them are my friends.

WhiteFeministWarMachine · 16/06/2021 18:24

@Ijustreallywantacat

Having a penis is a physical characteristic. So they're not allowed to say that?

Can you not see that saying "No thanks you have a dick" is rude? Let's leave transphobic out of it. Can you not see that it's just rude?! Think it all you want, for sure.

What's wrong with just saying "No"?

What's wrong with transwomen accepting that lesbians aren't into them?
Naunet · 16/06/2021 18:25

If I attack a transwoman who I see with her female partner because I don't like lesbians I think (rightly or wrongly) it is a hate crime because I think she's a lesbian

And again, you would still have to know what the definition of a lesbian is, in order to think they were one. Otherwise what made you think they were a lesbian rather than say disabled, or some other protected characteristic? Words have meanings, that’s how language works!

Naunet · 16/06/2021 18:28

Can you not see that saying "No thanks you have a dick" is rude? Let's leave transphobic out of it. Can you not see that it's just rude?! Think it all you want, for sure

What's wrong with just saying "No"?

I really don’t see how it’s rude. If a gay man said to me ‘no thanks, you have a vagina’, I would think, ‘well obviously, what was I doing thinking I could change his sexuality?’

Mummyoflittledragon · 16/06/2021 18:29

[quote PurpleyBlue]@RedToothBrush so all those blokes who put their mate in a dress on his stag do are making him a transwoman according to stonewall? So he can go in the ladies loos?[/quote]
Correct, except you don’t even need to dress up. A man can dress in a suit, tie, sport a beard and call themselves a woman. Cos feelz …

Bollindger · 16/06/2021 18:31

Transwoman do not want to accept that they are not and never will be a woman.
Words shouted such as TWAW will not change this.
So instead they want us all to pretend so they can play at the sex change thing.
Just because we all play nice, and use the words forced on us, does not mean it is the real truth.
I think the fact Transwoman are complaining about sexual partners rejecting them shows in RL the lie is not upheld.

Ijustreallywantacat · 16/06/2021 18:32

What's wrong with transwomen accepting that lesbians aren't into them?

Well that's just not correct. As I said before, if you had asked me a few years ago I would have said I was a lesbian. I dated many women and that included transwomen. Many lesbians are in to them.

Again, if its only asking someone out, I don't see the problem. There's nothing wrong with saying no, and the TW I know have no issues with being rejected.

Do you think that TW who do ask women out deserve rude behaviour or abuse because of it? That they should just not ask people out, in case they say no? I don't really understand what the alternative is to people being free to ask who they want out, and people being allowed to say no.

Maskless · 16/06/2021 18:32

I recently met a young lesbian, 23 years old, freshly graduated. Knowing about this controversy I asked her, in a lighthearted manner, what she made of "these blokes calling themselves lesbians" just to hear her opinion.

She shocked me by saying she'd been in a relationship with one for a year at uni. I asked how that worked, if she really was a lesbian. I suggested that she was in fact, bi. Oh no, she said, most emphatically, I am 100% lesbian. I said that makes no sense, you have been sleeping with someone with a male body. Then she said no, it's not like that, trans women have "a different essence" and "a female energy" about them. I then said, yeah, but they've still got the meat and two veg, how do you cope with that? She kept on saying that I "don't understand". (She's right - I don't!) She said you don't have to use it as a penis. You can "get round that". By this time she was squirming with embarassment and so was I, so I let it go and we've never broached the subject again.

Naunet · 16/06/2021 18:35

@Ijustreallywantacat

What's wrong with transwomen accepting that lesbians aren't into them?

Well that's just not correct. As I said before, if you had asked me a few years ago I would have said I was a lesbian. I dated many women and that included transwomen. Many lesbians are in to them.

Again, if its only asking someone out, I don't see the problem. There's nothing wrong with saying no, and the TW I know have no issues with being rejected.

Do you think that TW who do ask women out deserve rude behaviour or abuse because of it? That they should just not ask people out, in case they say no? I don't really understand what the alternative is to people being free to ask who they want out, and people being allowed to say no.

That’s not being a lesbian. A lesbian is a same sex attracted female. If you were same gender attracted, or any of your friends were, good for you, but that needs a new term, lesbian is taken.
Ijustreallywantacat · 16/06/2021 18:36

She shocked me by saying she'd been in a relationship with one for a year at uni. I asked how that worked, if she really was a lesbian. I suggested that she was in fact, bi. Oh no, she said, most emphatically, I am 100% lesbian. I said that makes no sense, you have been sleeping with someone with a male body. Then she said no, it's not like that, trans women have "a different essence" and "a female energy" about them. I then said, yeah, but they've still got the meat and two veg, how do you cope with that? She kept on saying that I "don't understand". (She's right - I don't!) She said you don't have to use it as a penis. You can "get round that". By this time she was squirming with embarassment and so was I, so I let it go and we've never broached the subject again.

Shock Wow, I cannot believe how stunningly rude you were. Her relationship and what she wants to call herself, and her partners genitalia, are none of your business! Wowwww!

Ijustreallywantacat · 16/06/2021 18:39

That’s not being a lesbian. A lesbian is a same sex attracted female. If you were same gender attracted, or any of your friends were, good for you, but that needs a new term, lesbian is taken.

In your opinion. I don't think it does need a new term, and neither do any of my many LGBT+ friends...You go ahead and use a new term for YOU if you like, (and for us without our permission I guess) but I'll continue to define my self the way i like thanks Smile

RedToothBrush · 16/06/2021 18:41

If transwomen truly respected lesbians they'd give themselves a different name so everyone knew where they stood...

They sure make sure you know they are trans when they want to. And trying to have sex by deception is against the law...

Musthavesbackagain · 16/06/2021 18:45

@Ijustreallywantacat

She shocked me by saying she'd been in a relationship with one for a year at uni. I asked how that worked, if she really was a lesbian. I suggested that she was in fact, bi. Oh no, she said, most emphatically, I am 100% lesbian. I said that makes no sense, you have been sleeping with someone with a male body. Then she said no, it's not like that, trans women have "a different essence" and "a female energy" about them. I then said, yeah, but they've still got the meat and two veg, how do you cope with that? She kept on saying that I "don't understand". (She's right - I don't!) She said you don't have to use it as a penis. You can "get round that". By this time she was squirming with embarassment and so was I, so I let it go and we've never broached the subject again.

Shock Wow, I cannot believe how stunningly rude you were. Her relationship and what she wants to call herself, and her partners genitalia, are none of your business! Wowwww!

Good lord, are you able to see anything logically in your world or is your brain just a big mushy maze of propaganda and make believe? Because biology. Are you actually a grown up?
Mummyoflittledragon · 16/06/2021 18:45

@PurpleyBlue

I'm beginning to think we should just identify people as vagina-haver and penis-haver.
No absolutely not. This is what we natal women are being denigrated into…. So that transwomen can be the real women and take the women’s spot and relegate us to our body parts…. But no such usage for penis haver.

Women are so much more than that. If we choose, we are the givers of life. Being able to talk about biology with other women is very important for numerous reasons.

This leads to the clunky ‘front hole’, which has come into usage and published a few years ago on Healthline in guidance for trans people. My understanding being that front hole would be used to describe the vagina for transmen and vagina used for post op transwomen.

junipertree2 · 16/06/2021 18:45

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Mummyoflittledragon · 16/06/2021 18:46

@Musthavesbackagain
Grin Grin

Ijustreallywantacat · 16/06/2021 18:48

Good lord, are you able to see anything logically in your world or is your brain just a big mushy maze of propaganda and make believe?
Because biology. Are you actually a grown up?

I'm just in disbelief that anyone thinks that quizzing someone on their partners genitalia and calling them a liar until they 'squirm' is acceptable behaviour!

Mummyoflittledragon · 16/06/2021 18:49

@Ijustreallywantacat

*Good lord, are you able to see anything logically in your world or is your brain just a big mushy maze of propaganda and make believe? Because biology. Are you actually a grown up?*

I'm just in disbelief that anyone thinks that quizzing someone on their partners genitalia and calling them a liar until they 'squirm' is acceptable behaviour!

And I’m in disbelief that young women have been so brainwashed to welcome in their abuse and erasure.
Chienloup · 16/06/2021 18:50

@User57892

I think it’s fine for lesbians to set their own boundaries on this without others trying to force some kind of defining label on it. Some lesbians are happy to be involved with trans women. Some aren’t. Both are valid positions, and neither precludes them from being lesbians.
Yes!