Mumsnetters who support trans women, please comment here

[LiberaceTrumpet]

Mumsnetters who are gender critical - please please do not comment here, this is not a discussion thread, I just want to see if there are other people here who share my views.

I believe feminism is nothing if not intersectional.

I feel really alone on mumsnet. Every time I come on and want to get advice about something or just waste five minutes there's always another trans thread. Maybe this website is not the place for me?

lovely kind young people

Kind of making a rather large leap of prejudice there aren't you?

@Oneliner

Bigotry is prejudice and it's not ok. I really don't mind what you were yesterday, today or tomorrow dig out so long as you are respectful to everyone regardless of gender or sex. We can all get along, it doesn't have to be a fight.

You haven't really been very respectful to people on the basis of their sex, though, have you? Calling people bigots because they want to uphold the rights that they have in law in neither respectful nor tolerant, nor indicative of a desire to get along with people. No one on here has said that they don't respect trans people (apart, ironically, from the transexual poster who has an understandable issue with the widening umbrella of transgenderism). The lack of respect seems to be coming from your direction.

@Oneliner

Bigotry is prejudice and it's not ok. I really don't mind what you were yesterday, today or tomorrow dig out so long as you are respectful to everyone regardless of gender or sex. We can all get along, it doesn't have to be a fight.

Bigotry is prejudice and it's not ok

I agree!! however, you really need to look up the dictionary for the meaning. I think you think it means 'women who disagree and argue with evidenced debate against your very emotionally, and unmoving opinion'. Does this sound right? Because it is definitely the exemplar of the words you used in the first part of your statement there.

We can all get along, it doesn't have to be a fight.

And yet you seem to be the one who is using hateful and vile language to label others.

I don't want engage with all the anger, misrepresentation and misappropriation of feminism on the thread as it only serves to amplify it. The fact that championing equality and young people is challenging to some, gives cause for reflection as to where your anger is really coming from. Again, I'm sending kindness and support to all transpeople. You are valued.

very emotionally, and unmoving opinion

should be very emotionally presented and based, and unmoving opinion

sorry

Anybody who thinks the issue is black and white (Pro or anti-TW) has missed a hell of a lot of shades of nuance. Like the fact that GC people don't hate TW. Or, as has now been repeatedly said, TM.

But sure, it's easier to paint the other side as hateful bigots than try to understand their points.

Again, I'm sending kindness and support to all transpeople. You are valued.

As many of us have transpeople in our lives, we can join you in this... They are indeed valued.

@Oneliner

Bigotry is prejudice and it's not ok. I really don't mind what you were yesterday, today or tomorrow dig out so long as you are respectful to everyone regardless of gender or sex. We can all get along, it doesn't have to be a fight.

We are in vehement agreement then. I would never disrespect someone because of their gender or their sex.

And because of that I will stand up for the right of female people of any gender to define themselves as different to male people of any gender and to have their voices and experiences heard, believed and respected.

Where did you get the idea this was not the case?

You could have just finished that paragraph at ‘ I don’t want to engage’

Of course trans people are valued. Of course they are. Just not more than anyone else is. That wouldn't be kind, would it?

@Oneliner

I don't want engage with all the anger, misrepresentation and misappropriation of feminism on the thread as it only serves to amplify it. The fact that championing equality and young people is challenging to some, gives cause for reflection as to where your anger is really coming from. Again, I'm sending kindness and support to all transpeople. You are valued.

The fact that championing equality and young people is challenging to some

Only if it takes the form of silencing female voices and denying female experiences. In which case, of course, it's not really equality for everyone at all, just the same old patriarchy drssed up in a rainbow outfit.

But as long as you don't do that, we're golden.

Well, oneliner does what oneliner does best: deliver oneliners with a smile that has little to no substance to them. All you can do, is go 'aaah bless' and leave them to it.

I don't want engage with all the anger, misrepresentation and misappropriation of feminism on the thread as it only serves to amplify it.

Oneliner You are the one who is abusing the women who are posting quite measured and civil posts here. And why on earth would you think that feminism has only ever been one stream of beliefs? That does seem to signify a lack of knowledge about feminism to me. There has long been different schools of thought in feminism. And to be blunt, you don't own feminism!

The fact that championing equality and young people is challenging to some, gives cause for reflection as to where your anger is really coming from.

People are being quite measured and not many are not displaying anger here. You seem to have fallen into thinking that push back and disagreement is anger. People are rightfully pointing out your absolute lack of engagement and the fact that you think it is appropriate to label people as bigots and say they are displaying hate.

People will always perceive equality as different things. You have not acknowledged the posts where conflicts to that very concept have been pointed out. Perhaps because you have only a superficial knowledge of the fight for women's equality vs some very knowledgeable people who have qualifications in the subject. To repeat. Women have been fighting for equality for ever. Many on this thread have been actively involved. Equality does not mean 'treating all people equally', it can mean giving some sort of consideration to be able to achieve equality for those who need it.

It also does not mean that when women fight for equality that trans people should miss out. It means that trans people should fight for their own proportional representation and that will enable them to actively progress their needs. It does NOT mean taking representation away from females who still are not receiving equal representation is nearly all aspects of life.

Anyone thinking that 'young people' are not being championed on MN is also probably not a parent of a teenager who is dealing with the effects of gender identity every single day.

gives cause for reflection as to where your anger is really coming from.

hmmmm

That's a lot of words just to say "be nice", which we've all heard many, many times before. And it's funny how this message is always aimed at women.

Edit: that was in response to @Oneliner's post.

@sanluca

Well, oneliner does what oneliner does best: deliver oneliners with a smile that has little to no substance to them. All you can do, is go 'aaah bless' and leave them to it.

Aren't they doing a fab job though?

This thread has really become rather informative because of them. I thank oneliner for continuing to engage in the typical style of those who then argue that MN is phobic and that is silences those with different opinions.

How many times have we asked for engagement and for the name calling and abusive slurring to stop and it has been snidely ignored?

It merely causes us to come back with even more reasoned discussion points. Great job indeed!!!

My beliefs below about trans women but refers to trans men equally.

I believe that trans women should be treated as and recognised as women in society. Being trans merits no comment or judgement any more than being a woman does. I see no rights being eroded by trans women living their lives in every way as a woman.

Biological sex related issues (smears etc.) are a completely private matter between the trans individual and their medical care providers.

Trans children and puberty blockers/surgical procedures etc. are a private matter between the individual, their guardian and their medical care providers. It's too case by case to be legislated for so the responsibility needs to lie with the guardians mostly.

Trans women in sport. Very tricky. Not sure what the best thing to do here is.

Being trans merits no comment or judgement any more than being a woman does. 🤔

@Helleofabore

lovely kind young people

Kind of making a rather large leap of prejudice there aren't you?

Mmmm … given the recent Ofsted survey that resulted in warnings that sexual harassment has become "normalised" among school-age children, I suspect those “lovely kind young people” are going to find an even greater need for single sex spaces in the very near future.

I believe that trans women should be treated as and recognised as women in society. Being trans merits no comment or judgement any more than being a woman does. I see no rights being eroded by trans women living their lives in every way as a woman.

Do you think a board with 50% male men and 50% trans women has equal representation of men and women?

Do you think statistics on criminality, pay and career opportunities, unpaid domestic labour, domestic and sexual abuse and other statistics that influence legal and social priorities should count trans women and female women as the same group?

I support coming on mumsnet and women having an opinion and I even support ones I disagree with.

I support the fact that I care about things & people that matter to me.

I support the fact that no one is entitled to respect or demand anything from you nor responsible for their own insecurities.

I support the fact that no man will ever again dictate, control or take power away from me.

I support the fact that I not interest in feelings of men who are not my priority.

I support fact my daughter has found her path onto radical feminism and not worry she repeat my mistakes

I support the fact I got to raise a DS in what is dumpster shiffest male society.

I support that everyone doesn’t have to give a fuck what you try label them as they still won’t ever believe in anything but facts!

I don't relate to feminism that excludes equality for all. I'm not threatened by how people wish to be identified. Transpeople, you are valued.

I suspect those “lovely kind young people” are going to find an even greater need for single sex spaces in the very near future.

As the mother of a vulnerable teen, I know damn well that you are right.

But some posters may well be so deeply blinded in ideological thinking that they only ever think in one direction. Where as the people, including parents and partners dealing with this everyday have a much greater depth of knowledge as to all aspects of this discussion.

*Not responsible for others insecurities