Do you think people really like diversity?

[TheYearOfSmallThings]

I live in a diverse part of East London, which likes to congratulate itself on its diversity. And in fairness, everyone generally gets along quite nicely.

But as I listened to a posse of white middle class mums in their 30s with carefully curated trainers and vaguely creative jobs waxing enthusiastic about all the diversity, it struck me that most people here, given the choice, spend their time with people exactly like themselves. It's not just the middle class bum sniffing either, the other communities are just the same. It's as if we enjoy pretending to embrace diversity, when we might as well just have stayed in the village we grew up in, except there were no jobs.

Maybe it's just the area I live in, which has been partially gentrified and is in a state of flux. Maybe people feel a bit insecure and flock together for reassurance?

Does anyone live in a place where people genuinely demonstrate enthusiasm for integrating their lives with those of people who are different from them?

Original poster good food for thought thread. Arguably the simple honest answer is no! Many of us in cosmopolitan core central London believe “diversity or multicultural Britain” is just seemingly superficial feel good window dressing. It has good intentions to move towards integration and away from race riots and disputes (eg recent Pimlico school race/religious issues) etc and to be seen as an ideal concept to help depressed inner city ghetto gentrification. However it is also human nature to feel most comfortable living with like minded people and so certain communities develop by way of natural magnetic attraction. It’s natural to stick with or go for someone that shares your culture, heritage and aspirations. This is why you have certain parts of London full of peoples from the same immigrant backgrounds. Many of these communities themselves are very particular about who they mix with as I naively discovered the subtle difference between south Asians of different Indian sub continent geographies and different strong religious restrictions/beliefs throughout several different parts of London. Some still distrust/hate each other despite being far from their place of origin. On the plus side it is interesting to feel like an explorer on those visits to Edgware Road for late night Arabic food, Green Lanes for Turkish, Cypriot and Greek food and culture, Stanford Hill and Golders Green for Jewish bakery and restaurants, New Malden for South Korean barbecue, Kingsland Road for Vietnamese pho, Little Portugal/Stockwell for Portuguese and Brazilian food spots and of course Chinatown for all things East Asian. I see so many schools that appear to only cater to a particular demographic and that includes catering requirements. They tend to have a uniform look and feel and I suspect those from indigenous backgrounds will not necessarily blend in as well. I imagine these majority BAME communities will slowly integrate with the surrounding communities with each new generation as language and communication will not be a barrier to those born here. The UK as a whole has better multicultural population relations than say France or Denmark as we Brits tend to be more tolerant with equality and anti hate laws and being kind is a part of the primary school PSHE(?) curriculum to nurture inclusiveness and anti discrimination at an early age.

My friendship group is definitely ethnically mixed but it really isn’t socio-economically mixed at all. Our friends both white and non white alike have a similar outlook, similar approach to parenting and education, similar levels of education and qualifications. With the exception of one Polish couple, they’re all British. I guess that suggests I have an unconscious bias or maybe I’m more drawn to what I consider to be people like me-So their skin isn’t like me but in terms of the things that matter, they’re just like me. 🤷‍♀️

I appreciate this makes me sound like a terrible snob. I’m not sure how I’d begin to tackle it though.

I live in a fairly cultural and ethnic neighbourhood in london and have tried to integrate and make friends here but people can be so rude and aggressive so it makes it very difficult to make friends

Despite what the levellers say, there isn’t just one way of life.

I'm going to have that song in my head now!

True diversity isn't just race. It's class, age, religion (including different denominations within one religion, i.e. Catholic, Anglican etc), background, income, able bodied and disabled, healthy and less healthy, level of education, interests, families, childless couples, and singles, life experiences. And perhaps most importantly, attitudes.

Yes a lot of people tend to be drawn to the familiar and people they can relate to. It's not out of nastiness or prejudice. It's just human nature. It's not necessarily bad and it's not the same for everybody. Some people love meeting a wide variety of different people, some seek it out. That's diversity of preference. So long as there's no hostility towards 'different' people (which should be tackled) and no deliberate stoking of division (again, shouldn't happen), live and let live.

@WrongWayApricot

I grew up in London and all the schools I went to were diverse. I liked it and had a diverse group of friends. Adults that didn't grow up with diversity gravitate towards their own more than those that did grow up with diversity ime. Even when living in diverse areas.

I went out with someone that was from a rural area and when we were in London he would constantly point out that he could hear other languages or point out different culture's dress. I never properly noticed until then that so many people walking past us were talking Polish or Somalian etc. But to him it really stood out and he didn't seem to like that he couldn't understand what passers by or other people in a restaurant were saying. He felt much more at ease when we were in his neck of the woods and he could strike up conversation confidently and easily with passers by.

I think language has a big part to play in fostering diversity. When people can communicate easily with those around them they feel better.

This.

I think there’s different types of diversity - class, ethnicity etc and some people may prefer or value one kind of diversity over another.

I was talking to a (very wealthy) friend who lives in Norfolk about school choice. She had chosen to send her kids to private school and (partly as I think she wasn’t entirely comfortable with her decision) she justified this by saying how ethnically diverse the private school was compared to the local state one. And yes the private school did have a much higher BAME intake - but one largely comprising the kids of doctors, accountants etc. So yes, she got ethnic diversity, but diversity of social class? Not a chance.

And would she have been so keen on ‘diversity’ if this consisted of sending her kids to a mixed school with diversity of social classes? Absolutely not.

I do get what you mean though OP.
You're right. Some people claim to love diversity (whether race, class, age, or anything else) but they don't really.

But, just because some people lie about it, doesn't mean everybody is.

Interesting thread.

I'm white and have pretty much always been the minority in my friendship group, but I'm probably unusual.

However, my closest three friends (all black) have received criticism from within the black community for being "too white".

If people really do this how do you account for the ever growing number of mixed race/religion/culture families?

It depends how you’re defining diversity. I don’t really understand what it is, you can’t be diverse and be fully assimilated, so in order for there to be diversity you have to have the different groups maintained surely?

I was born in Hackney and lived here nearly all my life, grew up on an estate that was very mixed. I’m from an ethnic minority, with one of my parents being a recent immigrant. In some senses I had a very diverse upbringing. Lots of friends and neighbours from different cultural backgrounds, different languages spoken at school etc. Of course though, lots in common through growing up in the same place at the same time.

I still maintain friendships from school and we share common elements but all of us have maintained our individual cultures, we aren’t blended fully. You will probably only see that with our children or grandchildren.

Sometimes there is an implication that diversity is us all being very British, while looking like the united colours of Benetton but that isn’t what most of us who are bringing the ‘diversity’ actually want.

I have lived in many countries and dated many different types. My experience is that culture/colour is not as difficult as the socio economic divide. With that in mind I worry about the focus on race.
In my dcs school many years ago there was a great mixing of colour and different levels of income. Very poor to very comfortable. All the kids who had money behind them (not wealth, but no substantial financial problems) to a person did very well in exams. All the people who hadn't, didn't.
We need to look at poverty.

Human nature - it essentially easier, more comfortable, less effort, instant understanding of references/ religion in some cases - whereas mixing involves time ad effort to understand an dto explain. Some people aere for it theoretically, but not everyone o those has time/inclination to put it into practice.

Then there is a negative level, i.e. deliberate avoidance based on snobbery, sense of 'our group is superior' and that's where it becomes unpleasant, or really nasty in some cases.

And yes, as others said, both can and often does apply to all race / religion groups.

True diversity isn't just race. It's class, age, religion (including different denominations within one religion, i.e. Catholic, Anglican etc), background, income, able bodied and disabled, healthy and less healthy, level of education, interests, families, childless couples, and singles, life experiences. And perhaps most importantly, attitudes.

For friendship groups getting together tho this can get really awkward. You've got a huge range of obstacles, like what different people can afford, what times are free in their schedule and other commitments they have, what activities they're willing to participate in, and so on. If you're, say, three working-class Sikh mums of school-age children, or half a dozen sixth-form students with good pocket money, or whatever, just broadly similar in many ways, there's a way better chance you'll be able to find something that all of you can do together at the same time than there is if your group is made up of a 50yo Muslim guy with a 60h a week job, a vegan history student with a part-time job, a Jewish nurse who works shifts and is also a carer, and a wealthy disabled SAHP of toddlers. It's really hard maintaining meaningful friendships with people when you have very different lives even just from a practical "when/where shall we meet up" point of view.

Well, some might say that diversity is great, but I think most people prefer to be amongst their own kind, their own "tribe", because that is the way that human brains are hardwired. Many people enjoy mixing with people from other cultures and trying foreign foods, but given the chance most people seem to prefer living in communities where they are surrounded by others from their own "tribe".

It's all for PR and for show. Oh yes we love diversity, but will we actually hire a black female Director? No, we won't. But she can be our poster girl.

People stick with what they know

I am a white (dads part arabic) catholic female and I've had abuse my entire life, too dark hair too white skin, catholic abuse about the church and travelers, rich snobby people wont be friends with me, because I'm well spoken those with difficult backgrounds wont either, those of varying ethnicities won't either presuming I'm a normal white lass, I experienced horrendous racism and threats living in Leicester, only from certain ethnic groups oddly, being followed home, threats to rape and kill spat at ect

Trendy diverse and inclusive office seems to mean as long as you are the right sort of diverse. E.g any colour as long as you are not fat, or god forbid, over 35.

Really interesting discussion.

My DH levels this criticism at one of my oldest friends. White, middle class to the core.

Her DC go to an inner city school, and she sings the praises of the diversity within.

But - all of their DCs’ friends and their friends are the same as them.

We are no better, although our DC go to private school, so we’re not singing from the diversity hymn sheet.

My public sector work place is pretty diverse. But, hands up, in my actual life, we’re pretty much all the same.

In my experience it’s more of a class thing...grew up in a working class east London neighbourhood. We all got along and friendships were formed between families of different races, religions etc. To answer your question, yes, I think most of us liked living in a diverse neighbourhood. Now it’s become so gentrified and I find those incomers form bubbles of like minded middle class professional people. Which is a shame for them as they are missing out on true community in my opinion. Now live in an i gentrified area, mostly working class, where our lovely friends and neighbours share gifts on each other’s festivals and we genuinely get on. Reinforces my feeling that class is more of a factor.

Yes I do. My close friends are similar middle class professionals but there’s diversity of upbringing, race, religion; nationality; LGBT; region etc. I know and chat to my neighbours, including the older neighbours who lived here before it gentrified. People look out for each other.

Like lots of London we live somewhere where wealth/ poverty sit cheek by jowl and that’s reflected in our choice of school eg there is a good proportion of FSM/PP Funding. There are also lots of parents from wealthier professionals law, medicine, creatives, media etc. There are also 100 different nationalities attending the school. I really couldn’t care less who DC play with (or what their parents do) as long as they are nice, kind children. There are a few parents who joined in reception who I think tried to cultivate a middle class “in crowd” but a few years on it’s not really there.

I don’t think my life is utopian it feels very natural. You’d have to make an active choice to discriminate in our circumstances.

It’s human nature to be attracted to people like ourselves
That’s why we have gangs /cliques /expat communities / etc

I live in an area where people work at the local university and as a result we love amongst a very ethnically diverse, but middle class, group of people. I do enjoy it. My DC go to nursery with children who all speak two languages and have a wide variety of beliefs and customs. they think this is utterly normal and I love that they are growing up in that environment.

Interesting. I’m also in a diverse part of east London. I’d say at the primary school level perhaps there is a lot of integration. My son is in the minority having an ‘Anglo’ name and we’ve had lots of his friends to play who have quite different backgrounds from ourselves.

I think it’s natural to choose to hang out with people you have something in common with. We get on with our neighbours on both sides (Algeria on one, Pakistani on the other) and have a good chat over the fence/sometimes share food but I’m hardly going down the pub with the ladies!

One thing I would say is that a lot of the ‘mum’s’ groups for baby activities can be quite expensive (even a fiver a time rising to £8-10 for some groups) and that probably excludes a lot of women who are from poorer backgrounds.

I see this daily at school, the white kids are in friendship groups, the Somali kids, the Indian kids, the Romany kids etc. Once they were allowed to put themselves into 2 teams for rounders and it ended up with white kids on one team and mom white kids on the other. When I let me class choose their own partners 90% of the pairs are the same race/ethnicity and sometimes if there’s in girl and one boy of the same ethnicity they pair up.

I think it’s because it’s who they feel they can relate to better; for new arrivals in school they find people who can speak their own language, a lot of the Somali kids go to the same mosque so their families know each other, etc.

It’s a ridiculous notion when you place it alongside human nature that has been hardwired into us for time immortal

Whiteness itself is totally nuanced...with many groups within it. Even the OP grouping together the middle class trainered mums....they are unlikely to mix with the white ‘chavs’ (?) from round the corner.

My teenagers talk of the different groups that exist...the rugby lads, the football lads, the emos (?), the indies, the misfits....there is a longer list....but you get my point.

The only thing that matters is not letting group rivalry be violent or gross....respect each other’s groups.

I don’t particularly like the concept enforced integration, mutual respect is fine, but you do need some higher shared values to have in common which is perhaps where multiculturalism does fall down sometimes. Allowing sharia law for example, which doesn’t protect women as well as British law....that causes problems...we all need to be singing from the same hymn sheet with our higher values, all the little groups that exist having the same fundamental beliefs, otherwise it does fall apart.