Anyone in Hartlepool - what on earth is going on

[Purplecatshopaholic]

Genuine question. (Apologies if this is in the wrong place, I don’t post much). I’m Scottish and in Scotland, and I am constantly aware these days of how different the views are of Westminster up here, to across the border sometimes. We also have our own Labour Party leader up here. But really? Is Keir Starmer that bad? Are other parties not available? Who on earth is still voting for Boris…? Any WHY?

@flyingtartar
Why did you use the phrase "Far Right" to describe this government?
Which policies do you see that deserve that description?

@BertramLacey

You are infantilising women. I know you think you know best.

I'm looking at data on the way women are assessed. I'm not infantilising anyone. Fact is, if you put a male name on a CV, it is assessed more leniently than if you put a female name on the same CV.

But I as a woman, do not need some sort of leg up to achieve things. Maybe I don't want to be a CEO - have you ever considered that?

As I said, it's not a leg up. It's a levelling out. Absolutely fine if you or anyone else does not want to be a CEO. I don't either. I do however want to know that I have the same opportunities and am assessed in the same way as other people, male and female, for the same job. And for anyone who does want to be a CEO, that also applies.

It is extremely competitive to get into any position that pays a shit load of money. Most men don't do it either. And competitiveness means that people will fuck others over to get there. And people will certainly fuck over any woman who is joining the competitive game - just as they would to any other man wanting to join the game.

It is totally pathetic to think you didn't get there just because you are a woman. It is so simplistic and childlike. It is fucking hard to get to positions of power - you have to fight, be tough as old boots and really really want it - usually sacrificing some other part of your life e.g. family

Give over that it is just because someone is female.

That’ll be why, when faced with Emily Thornberry, Lisa Nandy, Jess Phillips and Rebecca Long-Bailey in the leadership contest, they chose, er, Keir Starmer, then. hmm

Yeah, they should follow their own damn policies

@BertramLacey

women need a leg up to get on. That last one is something I especially hate - I don't want a job because I am a woman, I want a job because I am the best candidate - it is patronising in the extreme.

The problem is that women are fighting an uphill battle to appear as the best candidate, even when they are. The 'leg up' bit is to counteract that. If you're fighting an uphill battle, you need to level the playing field. That's all Labour's aim is in those scenarios. There are many studies that show the discrimination against women in job selection processes. Women have to be better than men to get to the same point. That shouldn't be the case.

I agree, but by giving women "a leg up", you risk giving the job to someone who simply isn't suitable for it. Rather than "giving women a leg up", we should be concentrating on the level playing field instead. All women short lists, giving additional weighting just for being a woman, etc., isn't the right way of doing that. In fact, it's just a lazy way of promoting women by holding equally (or better) suited men back. We need to get to the position where the best person gets the job regardless of their sex. Why should a more able/suitable bloke be passed over so that a less able/suitable woman can be promoted instead just for the sake of equality?

That’ll be why, when faced with Emily Thornberry, Lisa Nandy, Jess Phillips and Rebecca Long-Bailey in the leadership contest, they chose, er, Keir Starmer, then. hmm

And it will also be why the Tories have the best track record for women - they chose by merit and by the competition not by what genitalia someone has

labour candidate writes creepy misogynist tweets

Could you post a link, please? Thanks

@Moonstone1234

If you don’t know the answer by now Labour are going to be in the wilderness for years and might even split in the next few years. They are a complete mess and full of a woke agenda. Starmer isn’t as bad as Corbyn but who could be but he isn’t strong enough.

They need to move back to the centre and where is the next Tony Blair?

Urgh, the last thing we need is another Tony Blair

They also believe that all rich people are cunts. Despite the fact almost everyone is striving to become more financially secure
Yes, unless you’re one of their rich people, of course. It was particularly galling when the Labour Party tried to pretend that Jeremy Corbyn wasn’t one of the rich, London centric, elite. Which they seem to be repeating with Starmer.

@DentonsFringeArnottsWaistcoat That’ll be why, when faced with Emily Thornberry, Lisa Nandy, Jess Phillips and Rebecca Long-Bailey in the leadership contest, they chose, er, Keir Starmer, then.

That's democracy for you.

After brexit and the Scottish indyref there were serious calls on social media for voters to have to take tests before being allowed to vote. Because of course 'if they knew the facts they would agree with me'

Very true MorrisZapp. There was a thread about Brexit soon after the referendum when a poster genuinely thought voters should take a test before they were allowed to vote.
I expected there to be furious posts opposing such a ludicrous and undemocratic idea, but an awful lot of posters seemed to be in agreement.
Astonishing really when the same poster accuse Tories and anyone they don’t agree with of being ‘fascists’.

Outside the big urban centers (which account for about 25% of the population) England is a firmly Tory country with an increasingly pro Brexit/Little Britain/ increasingly xenophobic mentality. These areas account for about 40 million out of 65 million total UK population.

On top of that, the 70%-80% firmly billionaire owned right wing press make sure the narratives are always firmly on Labour weaknesses. Hence many people believing the Labour is obsessed with identity politics - when in fact it’s the Tories who spend far, far more time on “culture war” stuff. The angriest I’ve ever seen a recent Tory government was after a few blokes threw a statue in a river.

And of course with FPTP, the Tories or any other party only needs to get the support of 1/4 adults and they remain in power.

Against this background, and the slow disintegration of the UK, Labour has little chance of ever winning power again.

Not in Hartlepool but we had Labour canvassing for last minute Senedd votes yesterday. I asked them politely to leave because the incumbent candidate doesn't listen to people like me and won't change their stance on the issues I see as key (some environmental, some safe guarding, some economic). I saw little point in discussing it at the 11th hour.

Their response was to try shouting at me on my own doorstep that people like me would mean the Tories would win the seat.

Zero acknowledgment that I had concerns, just straight into the attack

If this is the approach Labour are taking with their campaigns there's no wonder they're losing ground to the Conservatives.

It's not necessarily that Labour voters are voting blue instead of red, I think it's more likely they're spoiling ballots and splitting votes (I was a vote splitter giving mine to an independent therefore reducing Labour's strength).

There's no acknowledgment that the bulk of natural Labour supporters can't support the current direction, instead it's "We'd be better than Conservatives" and "We pay most attention to the vocal minority".

Labour really need to do something if they don't want to lose more MPs in the next general election. It'll be interesting to see how yesterday's votes pan out over the country.

Give over that it is just because someone is female.

Would you care to show me where I have said it is just because someone is female? Or is it more the case that I've said we need to make sure that men are women are assessed equally. This is a good article that examines the way in which assessors show bias. www.idealrole.com/blog/cv-bias.html Changing the name on a CV from female to male gets a different result, without changing anything else. That shouldn't be happening.

@Marguerite2000

There's always been a traditional working class tory vote, a fact that the labour party (and many mumsnet posters) seem unable to comprehend. Just stop calling them fucking gammons and start analysing the phenomenon properly, and you might get somewhere. And perhaps ask yourselves why there's never been a female leader of the labour party. That might help a bit as well.

I think that is a really interesting question. I think the original Labour party - very 'muscular' and seeing politics as a fight was bound to be dominated by the macho, beer and sandwiches, male trades unionist. During the Blair years when Labour became more and more middle class and studenty the imported pseudointellectual rubbish from the States that attracts the misogynists that dump on women as sex class. Neither type will vote for a woman leader (and the last three women candidates shot themselves in the foot for many women with the declaration they signed). Tories meanwhile driven by free markets, libertarianism, etc actually don't care whether the leader is male or female.

We'll have another female leader of the Conservatives before a female leader of the Labour Party (unless they make an all women short list - which would be very belittling to many women and annoy working class voters sense of fair play).

@thinkingaboutLangCleg

labour candidate writes creepy misogynist tweets

Could you post a link, please? Thanks

This might be what the PP was refeencing:

www.newstatesman.com/politics/staggers/2021/03/curious-case-paul-williams-tweets

If people want to vote Tory that’s their right but what I find ridiculous is when people moan that a Party which 90% of the time (IE not in the run up to a General Election) focuses solely on enriching the top 5-10% at the expense of everyone else (starting from the very poorest and most vulnerable and easily scapegoatable, and then moving slowly upwards) is focusing solely on the top 5-10%. That’s what they do. What do you expect?

It was a Brexit election.

No, Brexit has happened. Who do voters trust more to deal with the "long-Brexit" issues like Jersey fish.

Labour are loudly shouting about woke nonsense so the Tories have seen the sense in keeping quiet and letting people think they’re opposed to that, without actually saying they are. The fact is that Labour is now only for the lefties and the woke middle classes, and there aren’t many of them in Hartlepool.

The UK is finished anyway. 50% for independence in Scotland. Around 40% pro-independence in Wales and similar in N.Ireland. Honestly, it’s over and probably Labour with it - as they can never win in England. Ironic that it’s the “pro-union” Tories that have brought the country to the brink though.

On top of that, the 70%-80% firmly billionaire owned right wing press make sure the narratives are always firmly on Labour weaknesses

What this type of argument doesn't account for is the history of the Tory party turning on itself.

The only opposition to Boris's government in the last year has come from his own MPs.

Some people on the Left simply do not understand this phenomenon, that Tories turn on each other very quickly. Look at poor Theresa May. That doesn't happen in Labour.....even though it should....and seems to me to be representative of this Group Think philosophy, the staying on side at all costs.....I find it extremely disingenuous, but more than that it doesn't even work. The fact so many people on the left still can't admit Corbyn was a disaster is testament to this odd behaviour.

They could not give a stuff about wallpaper, small to medium lies, and jobs to cronies (well, if they run a small business - corner shop, chippy, taxi, they'd give their brother/sister/mate a job too and do).

But this is the sort of thing I don't understand. £820 for a roll of wallpaper, which is more than I spend on food in a month. How on earth is that representative of ordinary working people?

Hartlepool was one of the most Leave-voting constituencies in the UK in the referendum. It only didn't go Tory for the last two elections because the Brexit Party and before that UKIP split the right wing vote.

Personally, I think Labour needs to represent remainers (48% of the electorate) more effectively. OK, the UK voted to leave and we have, but many many people voted against it and it was a narrow majority.

The Tories are winning in seats like Hartlepool by pretending everyone voted to leave, which we didn't, and enacting a very hard Brexit. Sending out 'gunboats' against French fishermen on the day of the local elections - did most people want shows of force against our closest neighbours to come out of the referendum? I don't think so.

I think there's a lot to be said, politically, about how Brexit is not going that well, and what could be done to improve the deal, but Labour has stayed silent on that. I think we're already close to seeing some UK concessions on SPS and on fish –and that's the kind of point the Labour Party should be making. Here in the English left-leaning cities, the protest vote is Green, not Tory – though I think Labour will hang on in most of them. But the message that's intended is that we can't keep pandering to a hard Brexit and to Tory donors –we need to look ahead to a fair transition in the light of climate change and to making the Brexit deal work for everyone, not just leavers, and to funding public services properly and fairly.

I think some of the answers as to who the Labour Party should now be targeting can be found in these maps of the referendum result: www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36616028

@Donitta
They’re really not. That might be what the Express, Mail, Telegraph, Sun are telling you every day - then faithfully echoed by the BBC, Sky News, etc. The Tories are the ones obsessed with faux patriotism meaningless culture war politics.

It's the bloody woke agenda. Which proper working class people i.e. people who actually go out and do a hard day's work for minimal money simply don't have time for. Not the 'working class' (self identified) people who work in media, or artisan bread making or art galleries - they love all that shite as they have the luxury of having the time and money to care. So Labour may still do okay in middle class areas, but they have completely lost the plot with the real working class.

The Conservative party is right wing, and maybe further away from the centre than it has been for some time, but it isn't 'Far Right'

It's incredibly immature to think that choosing a government for most voters means Labour = good and Conservative = evil.