Anyone in Hartlepool - what on earth is going on

[Purplecatshopaholic]

Genuine question. (Apologies if this is in the wrong place, I don’t post much). I’m Scottish and in Scotland, and I am constantly aware these days of how different the views are of Westminster up here, to across the border sometimes. We also have our own Labour Party leader up here. But really? Is Keir Starmer that bad? Are other parties not available? Who on earth is still voting for Boris…? Any WHY?

@frumpety

About the 'don't know what a woman is ' argument, are Conservative MP's asked this question ? Has Boris ever been asked ? What were their replies ?

No, they're not and they really should be since they deliberately started all this with Maria Millar's attempt at the GRA reform and have capitalised on it ever since. As a party they don't actually care either way, I suspect, just so long as they get the votes in. That's probably more dishonest than all of them: that they're happy to throw both sides under the bus as it suits them.

Just a few years ago, Conservative Prime Minister Theresa May was firmly "TWAW". She attended the Pink News awards.

Remember Penny Mordaunt's disastrous and embarrassing webchat on Mumsnet? When she, as Equalities Minister, refused to tell us what a woman was?

Why is no-one asking the Conservatives what they believe? In the light of Sue Pascoe endorsing and celebrating the appointment of a trans woman without a GRC to CEO of Edinburgh's Rape Crisis Centre, it's pretty obvious that the Conservatives still have just as bad a problem with identity politics.

@BertramLacey

In the general election it was a three horse race between Labour, Con and Brexit. Now the Brexit votes have gone to Cons

This. Hartlepool hasn't changed direction since the last GE. Labour only got 38% of the vote then, but the right-wing vote was split.

I have no idea why anyone would vote Tory. They are dangerous. Much of it is down to the right-wing press in England. It's not about accusing the plebs of being thick. I think anyone from any background has to be incredibly blinkered and naive to vote for the Tories in their current form. The left really needs to stop tearing itself apart and just get Labour in, before the Tories systematically dismantle our democratic rights.

Many Labour voters have changed direction, either to another party or to the point of not voting / spoiling. The number of votes dropped from over 15,000 to over 7,000.

Two questions formed in my mind :-

Why didn't Labour care enough about Hartlepool to choose the candidate very carefully ?

Will the Hartlepool voters still be inclined to vote the same way once the nation moves into the phase of paying off the pandemic borrowings ? Remember Churchill and the 1945 election.

I saw it posted earlier that the issue seems to be that 'Labour don't like the people they expect to vote for them' which seems to be pretty much bang on the money, especially given a couple of the comments on here about "thick plebs"

I couldn't vote Labour because "they" hate me for reasons already listed by NameChange2PostThis. I couldn't vote Tory, because I know they are just lying about not hating me to get northern votes. So I didn't vote. I don't see what alternative I had? I couldn't vote independent because I won't vote for an egotistical loon.

Lots of people are indeed ignorant, but the left has to accept disagreement too. It's allowed.

The Left cannot tolerate any difference in opinion. Which is something that most people clock as being supremely childlike and un-developed.

The current Left literally cannot have a debate. They shut it down. Call you names.

Its yawningly tedious.

@EdwinPootsLovesArchaeology

Why isn’t the Guardian an alternative anymore?

It's very American focused, especially towards Silicon Valley wokeness. Some of the reporting too is very biased and inaccurate. It's all a bit concerning tbh.

Yes, this. Very heavy focus on the US and Commonwealth countries for world affairs and on London and the home counties in terms of national news. Articles that directly contradict each other (not just in the Opinions section), lots of scaremongering / non-stories with 'may', 'might' and 'could' in the title. Maybe it has always been like this, but after years of reading it, I'm getting very tired of its style and have gone back to BBC News and news outlets from abroad.

Oh who gives a shit about the bodies comment. He didn't make it publicly and it was in response to pressure for another lockdown, which would have brought it's own problems. I don't support BJ but in the face of the simply astonishing success of the vaccine programme you're not going to get much traction over a comment made in the heat of debate months ago.

The Thick of It is widely believed to be pretty fair representation of how gvt and their staff communicate when we can't hear them. It's bloody, vicious stuff.

Toconclude for some women the Trans debate is a big factor. I have an elderly female relative with dementia who has carers. There is no way I would have a male providing personal care for her, it would cause huge distress. If our family lose the right to demand a female carer then the impact of that will be huge.
Our local DV refuge is closing because the council removed their funding as they wouldn't allow transwomen access.
My employer has made all toilets unisex so once we go back to the office any woman who has experienced abuse, painful periods, IBS etc will have to deal with men being in the same toilet block.
My friend is a Muslim and used to go to women only gym and swim sessions. Her gym has now made these sessions 'inclusive' so she's cancelled her membership.
It's not 'just' about medals and changing rooms. It's about the fact that women will be less safe if any man can access any space. So that has the prospect of affecting many many aspects of my daily life and therefore is a large factor for me.

Also, ‘The EU’ hating Andrew Neil of GBNews lives in France. I am hoping they kick him out or tax the living daylights out of him.

The left are too busy criticising and insulting to look at their own faults.

And they really need to.

"You mean as opposed to handing Covid contracts to their mates down the pub, hiding who paid for their flat decoration bill or "letting the bodies pile up"?"

That right there is the problem. Labour and Labour voters on social media keep saying the above when people in the former industrial heartlands have other concerns. We should all want a strong opposition but sell some hope to people and please shut up about the flaming wallpaper!

The problem is that women are fighting an uphill battle to appear as the best candidate, even when they are. The 'leg up' bit is to counteract that. If you're fighting an uphill battle, you need to level the playing field. That's all Labour's aim is in those scenarios. There are many studies that show the discrimination against women in job selection processes. Women have to be better than men to get to the same point. That shouldn't be the case.

You are infantilising women. I know you think you know best. But I as a woman, do not need some sort of leg up to achieve things. Maybe I don't want to be a CEO - have you ever considered that?

There's always been a traditional working class tory vote, a fact that the labour party (and many mumsnet posters) seem unable to comprehend. Just stop calling them fucking gammons and start analysing the phenomenon properly, and you might get somewhere.
And perhaps ask yourselves why there's never been a female leader of the labour party. That might help a bit as well.

Several reasons, IMO.

1. Politics has an added dimension now, and will do for some time to come. It's not just Left/Right, but Left/Right AND Brexit/Remain. It probably applies more so in some places than others (I didn't even think about it to be honest, but I'm sure in some areas it's still felt passionately about).

2. The heavy/unionised industries that were traditional Labour heartlands have largely gone. The tribal politics have faded away.

3. Labour seem to be permanently in 'victim' mode. Always whinging on (and I say this as a Labour voter) about why the Tories have done wrong, rather than coming up with an alternative themselves. I want to shake Starmer by the lapels and shout "Just bloody LEAD, man! Stuff what the Tories are doing, stop hanging on their coattails, come up with your own policies and ACT like a leader, then voters might see you as one".

4. The Tories are very good at representing themselves as the party of "the working people" when actually they couldn't give a fuck about the majority of them. Perhaps people hope, American Dream-style, that they will one day be in the demographic the Tories do care about?

@TrickyD

Thick plebs voting for toffs.

Preferring to be told attractive lies rather than truths they don’t want to hear.

I’m MA educated. I refuse to vote for a party who show this level of contempt for the people they claim to represent. Thank you for giving such a perfect example of what I mean when I say this.

@frumpety

About the 'don't know what a woman is ' argument, are Conservative MP's asked this question ? Has Boris ever been asked ? What were their replies ?

They were in Scotland at least.

I heard the question asked on the Any Questions debate recently - Labour and especially the Green candidate were horribly disparaging to the Conservative candidate who tried to point out that most people aren't transphobic - they are mainly anti self ID and they want some single sex spaces, like prisons, respected. His main point was there should be space for debate. The Green candidate initially refused to even answer and called the caller transphobic just for asking the question!

Last month I also heard the Scottish Conservative leader asked - he said clearly that there are men and there are women and that there is a difference.

Outside of Twitter, normal people don't want men in female prisons.

Labour is useless these days and stands for nothing anyone cares about. They didn't hold the gov to account over lockdown and were weak in opposing Brexit IMO. I'm in Scotland and the Labour in useless here to. I'm a traditional labour voter and can't vote for them

*Why isn’t the Guardian an alternative anymore?

It's very American focused, especially towards Silicon Valley wokeness. Some of the reporting too is very biased and inaccurate...lots of scaremongering / non-stories with 'may', 'might' and 'could' in the title.

I would agree with this. I've been a Guardian reader for years but the woke-ness and the hysteria (particularly over Covid) has wrecked what was once my go-to - the "might", "maybe" and "scientists fear" is bloody lazy journalism (and clickbait, which I suspect is their aim). There isn't another Left-leaning paper so I tend to just read the BBC News and skim The Times for anything political. I still love the Graun's Lifestyle section though.

The Conservatives and Boris listened to the Brexit vote in the Northern Labour heartlands and do not treat their vote with contempt of a "foolish, daft voter" as the other parties tried to

It was worse than ‘foolish, daft voter’. More like ‘thick, racist, xenophobic, .......add insult of your choice.....voter’.

Also every single thread about politics on mn there are posters sneering at public school educated MPs, particularly old Etonians.
Maybe the voters don’t care that much where MPs went to school

You are infantilising women. I know you think you know best.

I'm looking at data on the way women are assessed. I'm not infantilising anyone. Fact is, if you put a male name on a CV, it is assessed more leniently than if you put a female name on the same CV.

But I as a woman, do not need some sort of leg up to achieve things. Maybe I don't want to be a CEO - have you ever considered that?

As I said, it's not a leg up. It's a levelling out. Absolutely fine if you or anyone else does not want to be a CEO. I don't either. I do however want to know that I have the same opportunities and am assessed in the same way as other people, male and female, for the same job. And for anyone who does want to be a CEO, that also applies.

I am still so very disappointed by the election of the wrong Milliband. That was such an enormous shot into their own foot and typical of the self serving attitude of the big unions.

@hamstersarse

A few people have mentioned issues with Labour being ‘woke’.

Can someone define woke? Because I don’t understand?

Woke for me is not just about trans rights, although that is part of it.

The Labour party tell me I am racist (white privilege and do not want unlimited immigration), transphobic (I believe men cannot be women), colonialist (I don't believe we should rip down historical statues), offensive (cannot have free debate), privileged (because I have had a stable family background - that one is particularly confusing as that is what they claim they want for everyone) and also that women need a leg up to get on. That last one is something I especially hate - I don't want a job because I am a woman, I want a job because I am the best candidate - it is patronising in the extreme.

They also believe that all rich people are cunts. Despite the fact almost everyone is striving to become more financially secure.

Yes! Exactly!

and Labour and their supporters have got to stop calling the Tories 'far right' (they're really not) and saying it is unacceptable to vote for them.

Until Labour accept it is perfectly reasonable to vote Tory if you wish then they will stay second. That's the paradox. Accept and understand why they vote Tory and they might come back.

Working class people hate student politics and the name calling and #nodebate and they have more in common with upper class people (many of whom don't go to uni) and than many middle class people. They hate the intersectionality that comes with it because they can see it excludes them. They see people spending thousands on a university education to just end up spotting nonsense. Middle class people on twitter are bemoaning the lack of education in Hartlepool - well guess what, in Hartlepool they don't think much of your education either!

@frumpety

About the 'don't know what a woman is ' argument, are Conservative MP's asked this question ? Has Boris ever been asked ? What were their replies ?

I've asked my Conservative MP and can canvassers this and they were clear. Women should have their own space and a woman is one of two sexes, the one built to give birth. They looked at me as if I'd asked a really stupid question, which it is really because it's bleeding obvious.

@BertramLacey

women need a leg up to get on. That last one is something I especially hate - I don't want a job because I am a woman, I want a job because I am the best candidate - it is patronising in the extreme.

The problem is that women are fighting an uphill battle to appear as the best candidate, even when they are. The 'leg up' bit is to counteract that. If you're fighting an uphill battle, you need to level the playing field. That's all Labour's aim is in those scenarios. There are many studies that show the discrimination against women in job selection processes. Women have to be better than men to get to the same point. That shouldn't be the case.

That’ll be why, when faced with Emily Thornberry, Lisa Nandy, Jess Phillips and Rebecca Long-Bailey in the leadership contest, they chose, er, Keir Starmer, then.