What are narcissists like as children?

[DianaT1969]

I see many posts about narcissistic parents and partners on MN. I don't know much about it, but assume that people don't suddenly become narcissists in adulthood. If so, what are they like as children, and at what age does it become apparent?

Oh yes she’s definitely toxic. Whether she’s a narcissist is not really my concern now. I’m free of her so she can suit herself.

Isn’t it usually the case that the golden child is the one who goes on to become the narcissist?

Donald Trump’s niece has said this. The other siblings were badly affected by their father’s narcissistic abuse but he went on to be just like his dad because he’d been the golden child.

The one I know was very spoilt with material things/holidays but parents weren't present emotionally. They stole things from family, lied a lot and got in to trouble and expelled from school. They also were very spiteful and admitted to me that they used to do gross things to their parents tooth brushes etc when they annoyed them. It's quite sad writing it down actually, but they are a really really awful person now.

@midsomermurderess

When I mentioned autism I was not equating it with a personality disorder. I was pointing out how on this site so many users cannot see or hear about bad behaviour, of what ever severity, without immediately reaching for their own diagnosis. NPD seems to be the common go-to now, but see also autism, dementia, ADHD. Not, for the avoidance of doubt, the same as personality disorders...Up to recently, 'toxic' seemed to be the blanket diagnosis. And I doubt that NPD, or narc or whatever, is mentioned so frequently here because posters are encountering it more often than usual. It's remains very rare across the population.

Quite a few posters are insisting that NPD is very rare.

While quite a few have pointed out that narcissists almost by definition are unlikely to seek out a diagnosis-if anything, they are likely to avoid psychiatrists, therapists, etc like the plague! If they DO seek out such people, it is often in regard to other people in their family, family who are not narcs themselves but have been damaged by the narc. In other words, narcs seek out these professionals in order to manipulate them (often successfully, I might add, with the result that the therapist turns against the original clients, the people damaged by the narc!)

I'm aware of the dangers of armchair diagnosis. But when I finally got to read about NPD online in my 30s, that was a Eureka moment: it was as if the author of that particular site (someone herself abused by a narcissistic parent) was describing my own childhood. Her detailed descriptions of the behaviour.

Narcissism isn't just common garden bad behaviour; it is an entrenched pattern of very specific bad behaviour.

I hear those who say the label is just an excuse for the narc to carry on behaving badly. I'm pretty much sure if either of my parents had been given this formal diagnosis, they would constantly have reminded everyone of how it's a terrible illness and how they couldn't possibly be held responsible. So I never shared my understanding of it with my DF (now dead) and I haven't discussed it with my DM either: no point. But being aware of it has given me the insight and strength necessary to stand apart from all the madness.

There's a narcissist in DH's family. Fourth child of seven (DH was the fifth), one parent was unpredictable (could be loving one minute and violent the next), other parent was submissive. BIL pushed DH over as a child walking home from school together (DH was 4, BIL 8) and DH cracked his head open, had to have 30 stitches. BIL swore until the day DH died that he didn't push him over, DH was just dancing around and fell. DH remembered it very differently. My dad mentioned the stitches as part of DH's eulogy (without saying he was pushed over, just that he had a significant injury as a small child which left him self conscious about his hair because of the scars) and BIL was very angry that it was brought up.

As an adult, BIL was violent and unfaithful to his first wife, sexually abused his daughter, and declared that his brothers' girlfriends/wives were family property so it was only fair he should sleep with them. He shagged every woman who his brothers brought home, including DH's first wife, and stopped speaking to me when he tried it on with me and I told him if he didn't get his hand off me I would be wearing his bollocks as earrings. I also broke the secrecy by telling DH immediately - BIL had insinuated if I didn't go along with it he would tell DH I had tried it on with him).

He's an awful man. He guides behind this public persona of being very kind and hard done by because his daughter and her family don't speak to him. He's an alcoholic morphine addict who hasn't worked in 20 years due to a serious injury at work, and is toxic to be around. The worst thing is he remember DH so closely that if I bump into him in the supermarket or out and about, for a moment I think it's DH before I realise it's not. I wish that didn't happen because its awful associating such a lovely person with a controlling narc.

Resembles. Not remember... I assume he does remember his little brother!

Had ADHD and was believed to be very 'naughty' by his very traditional old fashioned parents. No thought about treating or understanding the behaviour, just constant punishment, physical punishment, told he was a wicked child and so on. Eventually became a bully but disguised this as he grew up. Underlying severe anxiety, but emotional development stopped around 12. Appeared confident and 'normal' but subjected me to rages and hatred and violence. Laughably he romanticised his wonderful childhood in rural Hampshire and it was only after years the truth emerged. My ex husband

Also idolised both parents!

I agree with your whole post TurquoiseLemur

I hear those who say the label is just an excuse for the narc to carry on behaving badly.

Never would you hear a person telling you that their obnoxious behaviour is because they have narcissistic personality disorder. This would go against everything they believe about themselves!

@Diverseopinions

I think a diagnosis is needed before it can be said with certainty that someone is a narcissist.

Not always. Look at Donald Trump.

[quote jessstan2]Everything is about them and they are allowed to be like that, maybe even encouraged and indulged by parents, for far too long.

Many people can show traits of narcissism at different times in their lives but that doesn't make them classic narcissists which is a very serious condition. The word is bandied about far too liberally nowadays.

www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/narcissistic-personality-disorder/symptoms-causes/syc-20366662[/quote]
This is a very good point. These 'labels' are grasped and applied too quickly, too often and it's not helpful.

OP's question is interesting but the 'definite' responses regarding children, are questionable.

Sorry I haven't read the entire thread but this stood out to me @DianaT1969
"The fleeing partner sometimes says "I don't want to split up the family because the (abusive) parent is a good dad/mum and DC have a bond with them."
MN posters are quick to point out that it's likely a trauma bond in order to survive the mood swings and bad temper."
This is exactly me currently with DH! The trauma bond is incredibly strong, especially as he helped me to escape my narcissistic DF.
In terms of childhood, DH wasn't indulged material wise - he's the 4th of 8 kids, and the were incredibly poor. He was treated as the star though, being the only one in the family to complete his education, obtained his Masters and received scholarships every year to fund his education (this was abroad). Even now, his parents don't say no to him, anyone that does gets an instant block MIL definitely babies all of her kids. DH's own parents weren't abusive towards him in any way, but he's told me some stories about his childhood and he's definitely experienced less physical forms of child sexual abuse from as young as 3, although I don't think he realises even now that's what it is. Knowing narcs can have experienced traumatic childhoods makes it so much harder to leave, because you want to help them, but it's not our job really is it? Especially when you have your own children to think about. It's all a vicious cycle really.

Fascinating thread. I don’t know anyone diagnosed with it. A few have traits I think.

It’s interesting about the abuse/neglect aspect. As an abuse survivor married to an (horrifically severe) abuse survivor I have often wondered what makes one person follow the cycle of abuse (in one way or another) and what makes another break it.

Re the autism etc mentions - I’ve spoken to my psychologist at length about the common misdiagnosis of EUPD/BPD in women who are actually autistic (she wrote her doctoral thesis on it and most of her NHS work was split between autistic adults and adults with PDs). The same can happen with ADHD - often misdiagnosed. I would love to know her views on NPD (sometimes I wish we could just have a long chat about psychology outside of my therapy sessions :o).

@Letsallscreamatthesistene

I know a narcissist. She describes a really unhappy childhood, I think this may have been a major factor in her developing the disorder. Though, she's incredibly manipulative so its difficult to REALLY know....

Agree with this. The main person I think of when I hear “personality disorder” (definite traits of various including narcissistic but also histrionic) lies about EVERYTHING. So although I can believe she grew up with a combination of shame and material indulgence it’s also hard to know which of her anecdotes are actually true. Even a psychologist assessing a potential NPD sufferer wouldn’t be able to know for sure I guess.

Thankfully this person is one I can mostly avoid. I really feel for those who are stuck with actual narcissists whether diagnosed or not 💐

Diagnosed by me.

Favourite child of an angry, volatile parent. Also had a loving, but passive in their own head parent who didn’t do much disciplining and sees the world through rose coloured glasses, unable to talk about anything unpleasant with her children.

Volatile parent was also probably narcissistic as he saw himself as uncommonly clever and talented, just let down due to the class system (IHO) With a large chip on his shoulder, he was also the favourite child, and his dad was controlling and violent.

Very sweet and lovely when she wants to be, some members of the family have only seen this side of her. Dad constantly compared other siblings to her denigrating them and putting her on a pedestal. But also occasionally getting angry and nasty with her, but less than the rest of us. She was/is unable to be in a bad mood without taking out on others and making spiteful mean comments. Enjoyed making others cry and saw it as winning. Made up lies to win arguments/ make herself look important. Very comfortable lying in general. Unable to reflect on her behaviour or ever see that she might’ve been wrong. Has no empathy for/ straight up doesn’t believe in mental health problems. She hasn’t grown out of any of this. Just tends to recognise when she’s in a bad mood and distance herself.

Honestly I had some of these behaviours growing up. Thought I was unusually clever and lied a lot. Kind of had it beaten out of me in high school though. I think the difference is I am self aware enough to have grown out of it maybe. Although I have my own problems with crippling anxiety and inertia. 🤷‍♀️

@ScrollingLeaves

I thought that giving little children a lot of love, support and encouragement was supposed to be the best possible source of their future resilience and ability to form good relationships.

It is worrying to read how some posters think they can see this sort of treatment as being the root of later narcissistic personality problems.

(I am not criticising or contradicting these views - but wondering how to get it all right in bringing up a child?)

It’s different to love support and encouragement though isn’t it. It sounds like the problem is when it’s overindulgence, over praising for particular things, never disciplining appropriately etc? And in combination with being abused or neglected in another way, so you get the huge contrast between feeling despised and adored - possibly even by the same person. That must be so confusing :( and it’s totally different to regular family life with plenty of love and appropriate levels of praise/discipline etc. Most children grow up feeling valid as they are - narcissists presumably don’t.

It is something I worry about though so I get why you are asking! I have been overwhelmed by the responsibility of parenting lately TBH I worry about being too strict and not strict enough, etc. Sometimes my eldest completely crumbles and shuts down if she feels criticised and that worries me a bit but I know I was similar at that age, and I just have to hope that I can help her through it. All we can do is our best.

Exactly this. It’s like you’re talking about someone I know. Always tells people about the trauma she suffered as a child but the nature of the trauma seems to change depending on who she’s speaking to. When her ‘abusive’ mother passed away it was all about her and how much attention she could get from how ‘devastated’ she was. If anyone dares challenge her she turns on them horribly yet always manages to manipulate people into standing by her, because she’s ‘vulnerable and can’t help it’. She had some health issues as a child and was very indulged as a result. I know another person for whom this was the case and she exhibits similar traits. Both grew up in an environment where they weren’t required to accept any responsibility for their own bad behaviour, and this has followed them into adulthood.

I strongly suspect that my mother is a narcissist. She doesn’t talk about her childhood often but she was the middle child in a family with little money and an alcoholic father. She says that she always felt like she was better and worth more than the rest of her family and often told my grandparents that she hated them.

Her superiority complex started early.

There are few people who are truly narcissistic truly being of NPD is very debilitating to their lives (and very difficult for those around them). Those that are I believe have mainly suffered trauma

Those that display many narcissistic traits can also have suffered trauma or have been very indulged but just because they have been indulged in some ways doesn’t mean all their emotional needs where met.

I think they may show displays of being insular, bullying, demanding later in childhood years but this so often happens with children who have very difficult home lives

Giving a child a label sticks often throughout their life. And often within families problems are put onto one person that can start from childhood, he/she was always naughty/difficult/demanding/the black sheep

My mum is very narcissistic but from a tiny child she was labelled as being difficult. She was certainly indulged but has also lived up to the difficult label all her life

One of our neighbours appears to be a narcissist. She is toxic, manipulative to the point she manipulates kids to get them to play with her own spoilt, horrible child ( think her son kicks other kids, she then gives the victim sweets, takes them into her house and then makes them feel it’s there fault her son hurt them). She doesn’t have any boundaries or install any in her own child. The word no seems out of her vocabulary as both a person and parent.

She throws tantrums publicly when called out about her behaviour or it’s pointed out it’s unacceptable. She lies constantly, deliberately stirs up trouble with various neighbours, she pits neighbours and kids off against each other. She really doesn’t seem to have grown up emotionally. Nobody can stand her except unfortunately my next door neighbour who thinks she is the victim😒.

I know several narcissists (now that I understand this disorder) including my older and younger sisters, all of them, bar none, have suffered some trauma as a child that has arrested their normal development. Usually being abandoned or being embroiled in parents fights will do it! Narcissism with abandonment issues are very common.

Most people have narcissistic personality traits until 6 or 7. People with narcissistic personality disorder don’t outgrow them, and they become more entrenched with time.

The one I know (diagnosed) had a sibling who was clever, pretty and benefitted from private schooling... The money ran out by the time he was of secondary age and he went to a comp and did really badly. But the main factor (I think) is having a father who is a religious leader of the more strident converting kind, and who basically absented himself to do god. His mum was left to pick up the pieces and he ... Looked after his mum. Bad family dynamics, essentially.

I believe a relative of mine is a covert narcissist. She is extremely manipulative, very competitive and jealous, and makes passive aggressive comments constantly. She also has rages.
She was the most delightful little girl, so it’s very sad to see the adult she’s become. She was extremely worshipped as a child, which probably has something to do with it. Her parents were overbearing and didn’t let her grow up (not that she wanted to).

Good question.
The ones I know are raised by at least one narcissistic parent so leaning towards nurture and leant behaviour.