What are narcissists like as children?

[DianaT1969]

I see many posts about narcissistic parents and partners on MN. I don't know much about it, but assume that people don't suddenly become narcissists in adulthood. If so, what are they like as children, and at what age does it become apparent?

@TeachesOfPeaches

I read somewhere that narcissist children are often spoilt with material things but not supported emotionally

This is it. From very young they don't have anyone close to them for guidance and acceptance. Part of it, I think, is also innate (born with an imbalance).

@Whocutdownthecherrytree

They are raised by narcissistic parents who teach them that’s how to behave. It’s not nature it’s nurture. Humans learn social behaviour and customs, how to treat people in relationships (family, romantic & friendship), by example ie from their primary care givers. Probably imprinted before they are 7 years

I disagree. My DD's Dad was a narc. She hasn't seen him since she was a small baby, yet now is showing traits of it. I'm most certainly no narcissist as anyone around me will attest to

@SugarbabyMilly

Children only become narcissists in adulthood. A narcissist is someone who doesn’t grow out of their childish behaviours.

As above I disagree, and there are studies to support this.

My ex was a massive narc and our DD who he hasn't seen since turned 1, is now showing traits of it at 6 years old. She's not learnt it from me!

@Whocutdownthecherrytree

Oh my, I’m reading all the responses about overly indulged children. My ex and my father are both narcissistic people. Both were emotionally and physically abused as children. Developed a self centred way of living through survival

Yes. The narcissist (diagnosed) I know had the exact same upbringing. Intense childhood trauma, mixed with extremely good looks, led to a need for intense self-indulgence that developed into a personality disorder.

I think that there is an element of it being genetic ie nature as well as nurture and I believe many specialists think this is the case.

I’m not sure it’s really that rare either, the 0.5% mentioned up thread is those with a diagnosis; I think there are many more flying under the radar, and since I did (a lot!) of reading in the subject I found myself seeing the behaviour patterns in many I’d known for years. It’s always going to be hard to get a formal dx as the condition makes one feel as if they are perfect, and the problems always get turned onto others- that’s the nature of it.

I also don’t think it’s possible to say a 6yo child is showing signs; children by their very nature are narcissistic and it’s the normal development of the personality that makes them “grow out” of it.

I found Dr Craig Malkins book fascinating, it approaches things by looking at as a spectrum. Throughout life we will move on the spectrum, and at times of stress will move up higher on the spectrum. It’s possible to have many “good” narcissistic traits, and also that it’s possible to have to few, making someone equally disordered.

I’m not sure it’s really that rare either, the 0.5% mentioned up thread is those with a diagnosis; I think there are many more flying under the radar

Yes, most narcissists think they are perfect and the problem is with everyone else so they don’t seek therapy or diagnosis.

I think people just diagnose very difficult and self centered people as narcs. NPD is a personality disorder. Diagnosing selfish people with this just gives them an excuse to behave badly. Everyone seems to know 2 narcs but it is more probable, in my view, that you know two very flawed people as opposed to two people who have a serious psychological disorder.

There is a real diagnosis issue though. People with NPD will typically laugh or ridicule you if you suggest therapy, and suggest it's maybe you who needs therapy. They have no need of such things! Therapy can't fix being "dealt a shitty hand" and not having caught a commercial break despite their inestimable talent.

@Redjumper1

I think people just diagnose very difficult and self centered people as narcs. NPD is a personality disorder. Diagnosing selfish people with this just gives them an excuse to behave badly. Everyone seems to know 2 narcs but it is more probable, in my view, that you know two very flawed people as opposed to two people who have a serious psychological disorder.

You are extremely naïve if you do not believe that evil people (such as malignant narcissists) exist. And have quite possibly lived a very sheltered life if you've never come across one.

Caesar, you are misconstruing what Redjumper is saying. On this site there is a clear and abundant over-diagnosis of people as having NPD. It's a go-to here for badly-behaved people, much as on the spectrum is run out to explain poor behaviour. There are far too many arm-chair psychologists on this site for its own good. And as an aside, if someone has a severe personality disorder, can they really be described as 'evil'?

@SugarbabyMilly

I’m not sure it’s really that rare either, the 0.5% mentioned up thread is those with a diagnosis; I think there are many more flying under the radar

Yes, most narcissists think they are perfect and the problem is with everyone else so they don’t seek therapy or diagnosis.

Yes, that is a big issue.

Also @midsomermurderess I agree, you make very valid points.
There is a big difference between being at a Diagnostic threshold and having 'traits'.
eg my two teenagers are diagnosed Autistic. Their (late due to poor services locally) diagnosis involved a Psychologist, an OT, a SaLT, a specialiast ASD teacher, a Psychiatrist & a Sleep clinician.

Re a diagnosis vs 'evil' - I would describe the person I know who is diagnosed as 'damaged' rather than 'evil'. However, their behavior can be incredibly damaging to those who cross them/ cross their path.

And as an aside, if someone has a severe personality disorder, can they really be described as 'evil'?

Yes, people like Fred West, Ted Bundy and Charles Manson who were diagnosed psychopaths.

As an aside can people stop mentioning the autistic spectrum in relation to personality disorders as they are not related in any way.

But of course most psychopaths don’t actually kill people.

as an aside can people stop mentioning the autistic spectrum in relation to personality disorders as they are not related in any way.

Standard MN misunderstanding on autism. Anyone posting about behavioural issues very quickly get told they are autistic. Its annoying.

I would say a child develops Narcissist traits as a coping mechanism to deal with a profound sense of shame which is caused by a deep sense of rejection caused by an emotionally unavailable or abusive parent.

OK, I understand this.

However, in my case, I don't believe this ever happened to my covert narc sibling. I suspect they were very emotionally needy as a child and what ever love, affection, attention, praise, encouragement, etc they got they felt it was never enough.

Maybe having to share their favoured parent must have made them feel like they had lost something i.e if it wasn't for sibling (me being the sibling) I'd have you all to myself. Why do we have to consider sibling ? For activities or holidays or treats or days out ? Why do I feel I'm only getting half ?

Did they think sibling isn't equal to me, IMO, so how come they get what I get ? Why isn't it all about me me me all. the. time ?

Oh, and why we're about it, maybe they thought their non-favoured parent can 'do one' as well.

Like a PP said, it's innate. They were born with it. It exists in their head.

I have a relative who was over indulged by one parent and could do no wrong as far as the indulging parent was concerned. Indulging parent was still worrying about and running after relative long into indulging parent's retirement years. It is for this reason that they have never been able to have an adult relationship because they just expect to be worshipped. When indulging parent died, they got nasty and chose to estrange themselves from the family.

My spouse has remarked of my covert narc sibling, 'I told you, she's (insert name of above relative).

I don't know anyone irl, but seen so many being called one online. Is it really true?
I believe anyone can has traits of everything to certain degree. So I really don't believe there are so many of them around as it appears to be reading something online.

My sister has narc tendencies. I don't know what she was like as a child, as I'm 10 years younger' but I know the situation:

• only child
• only grandchild of maternal family, and only one in that generation for ten years among the large wider family
• oldest granddaughter if not oldest grandchild of paternal family

So she had ten years of being the centre of the world for a lot of people. Private school, ballet and horse-riding, many family friends made through her friendships. Apparently our parents argued, and our father was financially abusive, but she didn't have a bad life.

Then I came along. Mum was in hospital a month before I was born, I was early and not expected to make it. So her world was turned upside down, and further destroyed when our dad died a few years later.

So in her case she was highly indulged, then suffered two traumas in quick succession.

I don’t think private school and ballet lessons make someone a narcissist. Although you were told she had a good life, that will be a biased POV. Sometimes stuff happens that nobody finds out about. A lot can happen in 10 years and the most important years are the formative years so before age 5.

@SugarbabyMilly - I wasn't saying they were the cause, just that she did have a privileged life compared to many. I honestly think the 'cause' if there was one was the death of our father - in a few years she went from being the only child of two parents to having to share one parent with me. Quite a change.

@SugarbabyMilly

Children only become narcissists in adulthood. A narcissist is someone who doesn’t grow out of their childish behaviours.

This is interesting. I only knew the term/definition of a narcissist when my friend told me as an adult a few years ago.

I would be shocked if I heard anybody describing a child as a narcissist as it’s quite a complex/deep rooted issue to put that label on a child.

A mate's friend was a family sex therapist, so said all British men were crap in bed. Forgetting that was the division of the population that she was seeing. So you will get a disproportionate number of narcs being outed on Mumsnet as their victims come on here to ask if it is normal behaviour.

When I mentioned autism I was not equating it with a personality disorder. I was pointing out how on this site so many users cannot see or hear about bad behaviour, of what ever severity, without immediately reaching for their own diagnosis. NPD seems to be the common go-to now, but see also autism, dementia, ADHD. Not, for the avoidance of doubt, the same as personality disorders...Up to recently, 'toxic' seemed to be the blanket diagnosis. And I doubt that NPD, or narc or whatever, is mentioned so frequently here because posters are encountering it more often than usual. It's remains very rare across the population.

A narcissist is someone who doesn’t grow out of their childish behaviours.

Childish behaviours being tantrums, manipulation, jealousy, bragging, etc.

I suspect my dm it’s a narcissist.
She wanted to re-train as a counsellor once so went to a therapy session and claims that she listened to the therapists problems because the therapist was upset about something. That’s her only brush with psychology professionals. I very much doubt her version of events. She dropped out of her counselling course unsurprisingly. She claims that thinking about other people’s feelings is “too abstract” so she doesn’t even try. She doesn’t see any issue with this attitude. My siblings and I barely speak to her anymore due to all the abuse over the years.
I don’t know that much about her childhood because she and my GPs always told loads of dramatic and contradictory stories. No way of knowing the truth. I’m sure her upbringing was pretty emotionally abusive from both parents. She isn’t evil but she is absolutely impossible to have a healthy relationship with.
I don’t think I have narc traits (I have had a lot of therapy so I suspect if I had a personality disorder I would have been told it maybe not?) so I hope it’s not hereditary! My own dc seem like nice people so far.

She isn’t evil but she is absolutely impossible to have a healthy relationship with.

Narcissism is one a spectrum. Your DM is likely toxic and lacks self-awareness and empathy.