How is this not murder?(upsetting)

[OhToBeASeahorse]

A mother has appeared in court today charged with the manslaughter of her toddler.

She left her, alone, for 6 days.

How can this not be murder? I don't understand.

@JustLyra

I am not minimising the experience of a difficult childhood. I have lived it and its effects never go away. What I have said is that this does not provide an "explanation" for abusive behaviour.

Again, we disagree. It does not excuse it, but it may very well explain it.

I think that is the fundamental disagreement we have.

A close friend of mine was adopted by a senior social worker and when he was an adult she told me his case was the worst not only that she'd seen, but ever heard of. Yet he is a functional adult, a kind person, gentle. People choose who to be, yes from some circumstances it is more challenging but there is ALWAYS a choice. This woman chose to do this to her child. And the only "explanation" for that is that she is monstrous.

I think that is the fundamental disagreement we have.

A close friend of mine was adopted by a senior social worker and when he was an adult she told me his case was the worst not only that she'd seen, but ever heard of. Yet he is a functional adult, a kind person, gentle. People choose who to be, yes from some circumstances it is more challenging but there is ALWAYS a choice. This woman chose to do this to her child. And the only "explanation" for that is that she is monstrous.

In your opinion.

In mine people and circumstances are far more complicated than that.

It’s brilliant your friend turned out well. Obviously being adopted by a senior social worker, who cared, was well educated, experienced, and will have known which services were available and, crucially, how to access them will have played a significant part in your friends growth.

A close friend of mine was adopted by a senior social worker and when he was an adult she told me his case was the worst not only that she'd seen, but ever heard of. Yet he is a functional adult, a kind person, gentle. People choose who to be, yes from some circumstances it is more challenging but there is ALWAYS a choice. This woman chose to do this to her child. And the only "explanation" for that is that she is monstrous.

Your friend had some strong resilience factors that counteracted the harmful impacts of the abuse and neglect they suffered. To extrapolate that to mean this should be the case for all abused and neglected children is ignorant, simplistic and incorrect.

There is more information available. Goochers Court in Brighton looks a fairly normal, if rundown house. The flats must have been bedsits because it is not a block of flats but only a conversion. Was this woman and baby the only occupiers at the time. I fail to see how another occupant wouldn’t have heard a baby in distress.

These increasingly implausible and unlikely excuses for her leaving her child to die a painful death alone are getting a bit absurd.

You should have read the Mairead Philpott thread. Apparently Mairead didn't understand that setting fire to her house with her children inside might kill them, even though she made sure she herself was safely outside at the time... and she was too scared to defy her husband on any subject (even arson), even though she'd repeatedly refused his requests for a divorce... and no prison time could compare to the grief she must feel for her children, even though she faked tears at the press conference and bragged about all the money she'd made from donations shortly after their deargs... and she was no danger to society, even though she allegedly didn't understand that committing setting fire to houses might kill the people inside...

People do have choice, our choices are informed by our life experiences, our knowledge, our value base, the support networks available to us, our resilience, the messages we get in childhood explicit and implicit - the list goes on.

Some people come through horrific childhoods and do ok, some need life long support, some act to harm others and some never live full, heathy lives. Personal choice is only part of that picture.

The girl’s parents were in her life. Do her supporters on here believe they are to blame?

Is the girl herself to blame? Or not, because her background was problematic? Should she be punished? If not, why not? Should she experience any re-education at all? Would you say, “Aw, too bad, poor girl - it’s not her fault” and that be the end of the matter?

I read this story today OP.

The saddest part was the mother was awaiting to be assigned a social worker and YMCA accommodation failed to check on the young mother!! They are also accountable too.

The girl herself is responsible - and the court will impose a sentence accordingly, but that doesn’t mean there aren’t wider issues at play, which will come out in the SCR.

@JustLyra

I think that is the fundamental disagreement we have.

A close friend of mine was adopted by a senior social worker and when he was an adult she told me his case was the worst not only that she'd seen, but ever heard of. Yet he is a functional adult, a kind person, gentle. People choose who to be, yes from some circumstances it is more challenging but there is ALWAYS a choice. This woman chose to do this to her child. And the only "explanation" for that is that she is monstrous.

In your opinion.

In mine people and circumstances are far more complicated than that.

It’s brilliant your friend turned out well. Obviously being adopted by a senior social worker, who cared, was well educated, experienced, and will have known which services were available and, crucially, how to access them will have played a significant part in your friends growth.

Not really: he was in his mid teens by the time he was adopted so the damage was done. Of course she did what she could to help but, I think he deserves the credit for the person he has become. He was a good person already when she adopted him, otherwise she would not have risked bringing him into her family.

Obviously this is just one example. Yet as many have said on this thread many people do unimaginably awful things who have had every opportunity in life. And many people who have had abusive childhoods turn into very nice, kind adults. Yes childhood is a factor in development and it makes things harder to overcome, when there are adverse childhood experiences (as they call them). But it is not determinative - as you know because you seem like a perfectly nice and empathetic person yourself. Environment impacts us a lot of course BUT there is choice. Some choices are harder but they are there. However the choice not to leave your baby to starve to death alone so you can go to parties isn't a particularly tricky one no matter what your background.

If she didn't have mental capacity she would not have been charged, she'd be dealt with through the mental health system. So whatever her issues, she knew what she was doing and did it anyway. So no, no sympathy whatsoever from me except for the poor baby girl.

@IrmaFayLear

The girl’s parents were in her life. Do her supporters on here believe they are to blame?

Is the girl herself to blame? Or not, because her background was problematic? Should she be punished? If not, why not? Should she experience any re-education at all? Would you say, “Aw, too bad, poor girl - it’s not her fault” and that be the end of the matter?

Not one single person on the thread has said, or suggested, that it should be “Aw, too bad, poor girl - it’s not her fault” and that be the end of the matter?

@ZoeCM

These increasingly implausible and unlikely excuses for her leaving her child to die a painful death alone are getting a bit absurd.

You should have read the Mairead Philpott thread. Apparently Mairead didn't understand that setting fire to her house with her children inside might kill them, even though she made sure she herself was safely outside at the time... and she was too scared to defy her husband on any subject (even arson), even though she'd repeatedly refused his requests for a divorce... and no prison time could compare to the grief she must feel for her children, even though she faked tears at the press conference and bragged about all the money she'd made from donations shortly after their deargs... and she was no danger to society, even though she allegedly didn't understand that committing setting fire to houses might kill the people inside...

Jesus. I honestly cannot believe how twisted people's thinking has to be to accept that kind of argument. I think I probably shouldn't read that thread though or I'll spend an hour crying and then be extremely angry. This thread has been upsetting enough.

@Jellycatspyjamas

People do have choice, our choices are informed by our life experiences, our knowledge, our value base, the support networks available to us, our resilience, the messages we get in childhood explicit and implicit - the list goes on.

Some people come through horrific childhoods and do ok, some need life long support, some act to harm others and some never live full, heathy lives. Personal choice is only part of that picture.

Exactly.

@MazekeenSmith

A close friend of mine was adopted by a senior social worker and when he was an adult she told me his case was the worst not only that she'd seen, but ever heard of. Yet he is a functional adult, a kind person, gentle. People choose who to be, yes from some circumstances it is more challenging but there is ALWAYS a choice. This woman chose to do this to her child. And the only "explanation" for that is that she is monstrous.

Your friend had some strong resilience factors that counteracted the harmful impacts of the abuse and neglect they suffered. To extrapolate that to mean this should be the case for all abused and neglected children is ignorant, simplistic and incorrect.

That again, is not what I am saying if you read my posts rather than quote selectively.

This is what happens when councils are more concerned about waving white, pink and blue flags and believing that men truly are women rather than getting on with the job of protecting children.

This is just so distressing to read, I also just cannot understand all the posters who are coming up with a million reasons why it just can't be the mother's fault, and of course it has to be someone else's.

@Ritasueandbobtoo9

This is what happens when councils are more concerned about waving white, pink and blue flags and believing that men truly are women rather than getting on with the job of protecting children.

And the 2021 Mumsnet Transphobic Shoehorn award goes to...

Some people decide who is the “victim” in a situation and entrench themselves in their defence.

In this case it seems some posters are determinedly on the side of the mother as victim.

@MichelleScarn

This is just so distressing to read, I also just cannot understand all the posters who are coming up with a million reasons why it just can't be the mother's fault, and of course it has to be someone else's.

No-one's suggesting it's not her fault. Some grown-ups are trying to understand what factors may have led to it happening, so that we can reduce the chances of it happening again.

@IrmaFayLear

Some people decide who is the “victim” in a situation and entrench themselves in their defence.

In this case it seems some posters are determinedly on the side of the mother as victim.

Or could be that some people can see them both as victims in different ways.

@IrmaFayLear

Some people decide who is the “victim” in a situation and entrench themselves in their defence.

In this case it seems some posters are determinedly on the side of the mother as victim.

No, we are just capable of basic critical thinking.

God what a shocking read, can’t believe how many people are trying to justify why the mum did this and make excuses! Bet they wouldn’t if it was a man I was running away from home at 15 as I didn’t have a happy childhood, I was kicked out at 16 and living in a hostel yet I have 4 children now and all of them have never been left alone. It’s sickening to read how many excuses people are making for why she did this. There’s no excuse ever.

No, I don’t think some “grown ups” are doing that at all. Read back through some of the posts and you will find improbable excuses (human trafficking, not able to use a phone) and dogged attempts to lay the blame with anyone other than the mother.

@Ritasueandbobtoo9

This is what happens when councils are more concerned about waving white, pink and blue flags and believing that men truly are women rather than getting on with the job of protecting children.

Brighton and hove council are a shit show of trans nonsense but the social workers who work there are dedicated, highly skilled and hard working. I won't have them tarred by the brush of BHCC madness.

@CausingChaos2

It’s what you were insinuating though isn’t it MagentaZebras

You aren’t a more pious survivor of abuse just because you’ve managed to make a good life for yourself. Traumatic responses are hugely variable.

I'm sure other people have said, but how on earth you can write that while trying to come across as being caring!