Not really sure why I am writing this, but predatory men

[CormoranStrike]

Not all men of course, but here’s my history - and these are just the ones I remember.

Aged 12 - a man masturbated in front of me as I walked home with friends along a quiet country lane

Aged 15 - doing my paper round in the rain and a man offered me a lift. He did not give off good vibes at all and my spider senses kicked in.

Aged 19 - heavy breathing, sexually explicit phone calls at work.

Aged 30 - colleague kissed me on the back of my neck in the office to say well done about a work thing. I was too stunned to move.

Aged 48 - colleague asks me to go for drinks to discuss a work problem. Then proceeds to blatantly ask for an affair.

I am a very ordinary looking woman. I was a very shy child. I give no indication whatsoever of wanting these approaches.

And yet again my heart sinks hearing of the tragic loss of another young woman who - like us all - deserved better, and has fallen victim to someone (the case is active and I am deliberately not naming names).

Why do some men think we are fair game? What can we do to help change this?

It may not be the schools responsibility, but a way to make progress is to ensure the next generation are being educated and these issues are being bought up for discussion, the same way that issues such as racism are. By challenging the thoughts of the younger males it may lead to change over time which should impact on attitudes in society as a whole as they grow up. We know that lots of students will experience these issues at home, school is a place where we can ensure they are told that domestic violence, abuse and abusive attitudes towards women are unacceptable.

And schools can definitely do more to challenge these behaviours when they occur in school, to teach boys it is not acceptable.

Schools could be utilised more effectively through PSHE lessons. Recently we had a PSHE day and there was a very small part on domestic violence and assault, basically covering the definitions. Nothing about consent. Students were told they could report to teachers but lots won’t want to, and there was no signposting to other agencies of support. And I think it can be a difficult topic for some staff to cover, the school I teach in has a vast majority of religious staff and students and some don’t feel comfortable discussing things like consent. It could be more effective with trained professionals bought in.

@Bordois yes thats also true. But they know how other men will view their daughters, probably because they themselves have viewed women in that way.

Men know the risk to women

It may not be the schools responsibility, but a way to make progress is to ensure the next generation are being educated and these issues

Yeah like when we were pulled aside in year 6 at primary school and taught by out headmistress how to sit and act 'like a lady' perhaps the boys could be in another room being told not to touch and beat on women!

Also they should educate young men about incel forums.

The conditioning starts young as does the excuse culture, silence and shame.

I was sexually assaulted repeatedly in school ( pleasant Home Counties secondary) during the nineties by a boy who was in the year below me and would walk up to me and grab me wherever he felt like whenever he felt like it. I did not know this boy, had no history with him it just happened over the course of six months, in corridors, outside areas, near crowds, when I was with my friends and was completely brazen. I did report it and Teacher’s response was to tell me and my friend to stay in at lunchtimes ( was happening at lunch and break times). Nothing happened to him I was year 8 or 9 and just knew I wasn’t believed, it was ok for him to do this and I had witnesses etc etc the female teacher(s) were at best dismissive and at worst I was disbelieved, despite having lots of people witness the frequent and random assaults. As a sixth former, a peer pinched my bottom and I flipped turned round and punched him in the face, causing bruising and yep .I got into trouble for ‘ over reacting’.

I wonder how young the inappropriate touching/ sexual assaults and mis handling starts. I am very aware of it between young people and have had cause to intervene in my professional life between young people, but nothing ever seems to happen to the perpetrator because it is brushed off as, rough play ( excuse for grinding on a female student in a swimming pool, even police were not interested), just playing ( deliberately touching the back of a bra and snapping it to cause embarrassment and is in fact assault) just being angry ( sexual slurs and spreading malicious sexualised gossip) and the beautiful one of well, she sent him the pictures what does she expect ( 14 year old was hounded for nude pictures, made life a misery until she complied then they were freely released, again police not interested, parents desperate and the other young ‘ princes’ in this situation learned that they were absolved because she sent the pictures!). Schools also desperate to hush these things up. I have had off site conversations with parents of young women advising that police would be a logical step and their rights re getting witness statements etc from the school/ college or institution, most do not follow up.

Addressing predatory, sexualised behaviour needs to start young, within the family and we need to seriously look at the messages our young people receive about their behaviour, effects and consequences. Predators don’t just happen they learn to thrive when society allows their behaviour to remain unaddressed. Silence, dismissive language around offences and encouraging women to be quiet, not report, not bother the authorities, fear of the atrocious court system for sexual assault/ rape victims has created predatory behaviour since the dawn of time.

Has anyone read Charlotte Church's comments today about Chris Moyles and bets over her losing her virginity?

This problem is so fucking deeply ingrained that I don't know where to begin.

Women are seen as second class, something to be leered at and someone to make your dinner.

I was once watching something on TV with my husband. It was a woman, SAHM, saying she was going to go on strike as no one else in the house did anything. All my husband could pipe up was "fucking women, they want it all."

All my life I've been controlled by men. My dad, my first husband and now this one. Both husbands have paid lip service but I know where I stand really. I'm just a second mummy, maid and nanny.

The way I was brought up shaped me and I never did anything with my life. Just went from home, to shit filler job, to married with a child young. So I've never been able to stand up because I don't have a choice in life. Yes, my husband trusted me to chose the house to buy that I'd never seen, but I have no prospects abs don't work at the mo (when I do it's just NMW crap), so my name isn't on the mortgage. It's very much "his house" and I'll be reminded of that if I step out of line.

Sorry, that's quite a tangent but I'm sure there are many women just like me. I want to scream and run away sometimes.

*that. He had never seen, sorrry.

My own expense experiences-
From age 11 onwards cat called and sexual remarks about my figure.
Age 13- 16 subject to sexual comments and inappropriate touching by two family members
Same age was also getting regular dirty phone calls(possibly by one of them)
Been sexually assaulted a couple of times by men I was seeing. One "accidentally" forced himself into me anally. I was so traumatised by that I phoned the Samaritans.
I am trying to bring my DC's up to know that their bodies are Theirs! And nobody gets to make them feel guilty for abusive behaviour. It's not easy when ex DH is a misogynistic twat who believes most rape cases are "lies". He is a criminal lawyer.

Predators don’t just happen they learn to thrive when society allows their behaviour to remain unaddressed
I agree, those with potential to become predators are cultivated by social norms which allow them to escape notice and accountability

Has anyone read Charlotte Church's comments today about Chris Moyles and bets over her losing her virginity?

Yes, I read her comments on this. I remember the ‘countdown’ to her being ‘16 and legal’. I was 21 and remember talking about it with friends. I thought it was repulsive but I remember people just laughing along with it. It was so inappropriate but Moyles was just classed as a ‘cheeky chappie.’ I’m interested in his response to his comments now. If it happened now, I think he’d be sacked, but I think that’s mainly because people/organisations are keen to be seen to do the right thing, rather than thinking/attitudes actually having changed.

Oh, there's no way he would be allowed to get away with that today.

But yes, nothing to do with attitudes changing and all to do with toeing the line.

Pathetic.

This has made me think of all the times I had this behaviour too

Flashed at in a graveyard aged 7 with my mother. My mother was so upset and covered my eyes
On a bus with my grandmother and a man was masturbating lying across a seat.

Standing on a stepladder in work and an old man ran his fingers up my leg until I told him I'd kick him in the face if he didn't stop.
Reaching into a fridge and the milk delivery guy reached around me and groped my breast...so I punched him to the floor. My boss threw him out and complained about him too.
In a nightclub a guy put his hand down my top.
Another guy did that at a motorbike rally and I whirled around and punched him in the face and tore his shirt. His friends gave him hell too.
That doesn't count all the catcalls, threats etc. I wouldn't even class myself as having gone through anything, it's just normal from men, and it's sickening to even think that way.

I think boys need to be taught about how to behave around women at school.

Not leaning into a women’s space
Not accidentally brushing against them
Not paying overt compliments
Not being rude or sexist
They need to be taught about boundaries.

There was a programme on sexual harassment about 3 years ago. I think it was on BBC3. It was fascinating.

Hardly any men on it recognised when boundaries had been overstepped.
More women did, but not lots of them.
They then had a barrister on who deals with sexual harassment, who pointed out when it had taken place. ALL of them, men and women were stunned at how often it was happening and how they didn’t recognise it. I think some of them started to argue with the barrister!

It was a real eye opener. We need to teach our teens about this.

TBH in most cases its as simple as saying "if you wouldn't do/say this to another man then don't do/say it to a woman"

What's even worse than all this, and more worrying to me, is the fact that he was aided in some way by a woman.
Awful. All that potential and the last face she saw was his (if proven) 😭😭😭

What's even worse than all this, and more worrying to me, is the fact that he was aided in some way by a woman

I don't see how that's worse than the fact she was, presumably, brutally murdered by him?

I don't see how that's worse than the fact she was, presumably, brutally murdered by him?

Yes, it’s not ‘even worse’.

And remember, the wife was living with someone capable of murder. It’s very possible that he was abusive and violent to his wife, forced her into things etc. She may have had no choice. Or maybe not. Let’s just wait and see.

When I was 11 I was assaulted by a 5th year boy on the school bus. We were the last two on. I didn't really appreciate the seriousness of it until quite recently because a) I was very naive and sheltered and didn't really understand sexual things then b) it was the 80s when attitudes about consent were really different and c)when I tried to report it to school they believed him over me and totally minimised it and said he didn't mean any harm and had just been having a joke. I was advised to just stay away from him if I didn't like him and to toughen up rather than come crying about every minor thing that someone does. I still half expect to read about that creep in the local paper, he was seriously weird looking back. I think he would have "finished" if we hadn't reached his bus stop. Gross. I haven't been harassed to the extent that other women have but I have a history of crap/abusive relationships and I do sometimes wonder if early experiences with boundaries (or rather lack of) played a part. Would things have been different if incidents such as the one on the bus had been dealt with properly and I had been told that I don't have to tolerate shit from men?

@Bordois

TBH in most cases its as simple as saying "if you wouldn't do/say this to another man then don't do/say it to a woman"

Or, as somebody I know put it when an acquaintance of his made an inane 'I wouldn't mind it if a woman did it to me, hurr-hurr/and of course it wouldn't be said to another man, I'm not gay';

'It's not about you doing it to another man or a woman doing it to you. It's about me doing it to you, in the toilets, in the street, in the office, anywhere I want to. Because I'm bigger than you and if I wanted to, I could and there would be nothing you could do about it.

Acquaintance said 'But you wouldn't, you're not gay' - he replied 'But you don't actually know that. You can never know that for sure. All you can do is hope that I'm not predatory.'

I've just had a discussion with DD regarding this and even though I'm aware, she's aware, between us we've just come up with half a dozen incidents that I'd forgotten about when initially reading and commenting on this thread.

Male teacher pulled my DD on behaviour in class, called her a pet name. Behaviour was out of order, I totally agree, as did she because she apologised, then asked him not to call her the pet name. He basically told her that as he's a teacher and she's a female child and it was well intentioned, she was out of order for even asking him not to, he put her in isolation for 'insolence' it took 3 other teachers - 2 of them female, to sort it out. So basically she was punished for not wanting to be called a pet name and voicing it, punished more harshly than for poor behaviour in class, which wasn't the norm for her.

Male worker in a position of trust commented on my DDs body saying he didn't believe she was the age she was because that age doesn't look like that. He was just plain nasty about it, until he realised I was with her and I called him out on it, he still tried to defend his comments though, telling me I was over reacting to him being sexual and disrespectful to a 14 year old (or indeed any woman!)

Numerous drive bys with a variety of things shouted out of car Windows.

Too many incidents to mention regarding being female and working behind a bar and I hospitality, including one man insisting I got another man to deal with his issue, I was deputy manager to a female manager at the time. The highest ranking male member of staff that afternoon was actually a commis chef, who offered to cook his bill for him as he didn't have the first idea how to sort it out as he was a chef, and told the guy if he wanted it dealt with he'd have to deal with me, as I was the duty manager and best placed to help him.

All these are very minor, but letting them go creates the pathway for pushing a bit more doesn't it, and challenging the behaviour gets you accused of being anything from a hysterical overreacting female to a ball buster.

I do believe we can facilitate a change,likely incremental but change nonetheless
It’s a responsibility we all share as it’s in ingrained conditioning & privilege that reinforces male privilege and stereotypes about women
Women are also consciously and unconsciously shaped by societal expectation & norms. Norms and values that need changed
The Well meaning advice don’t go out alone/don’t wear that advice that’s actually rooted in history,habit and sexism

Have been really upset by the current case, it happened a stone's throw from my previous house (left London a few months ago). Then today while working - mental health organisation - I received a call from a man which I soon found out was a sick prank call and he was wanking while asking me questions (obviously at which point I hung up). We never receive calls like this, of which I am grateful, but it meant it was a huge shock on top of the uneasy feeling I've had for days because of SE.

This was the third call in a few minutes so two colleagues were subjected to this too. Yes, also women. I despair of men - even the good ones have no idea how it is to feel so threatened.

@CormoranStrike I'm so sorry that you had these experiences at such a young age. Sadly I can relate all too well. Growing up I had waist length hair and on a regular basis, I would get random men coming upto me just thinking they could run their hair through it.
I was just 12 when a guy a few years older wanted me to have sex with him and as an adult woman, it has happened time and time again. I was walking along the street quite recently and a car passed with a jerk yelling 'Hey bitch ' out the window at me.

I was also sexually harassed constantly when I went back to college a few years ago by a married guy who wanted me to have an affair with him (I'm a lesbian and even this wasn't enough to deter him). He has a teenage son who is just as bad as him and constantly calls girls his own age 'fillies and bitches'

I don't even speak about these things with people anymore because I just get the usual 'Not all men are like that ' and yes I'm well aware of that, but it means little after experiencing predators time after time

Typo sorry *hands through it

Thank you for asking we are ok

Interesting many of the MET police said not to pursue what he did to me
Know the bastard is up in court shortly
Not holding my breathe
To meet him he is the perfect gent so no doubt he will be believed and will get off