Not really sure why I am writing this, but predatory men

[CormoranStrike]

Not all men of course, but here’s my history - and these are just the ones I remember.

Aged 12 - a man masturbated in front of me as I walked home with friends along a quiet country lane

Aged 15 - doing my paper round in the rain and a man offered me a lift. He did not give off good vibes at all and my spider senses kicked in.

Aged 19 - heavy breathing, sexually explicit phone calls at work.

Aged 30 - colleague kissed me on the back of my neck in the office to say well done about a work thing. I was too stunned to move.

Aged 48 - colleague asks me to go for drinks to discuss a work problem. Then proceeds to blatantly ask for an affair.

I am a very ordinary looking woman. I was a very shy child. I give no indication whatsoever of wanting these approaches.

And yet again my heart sinks hearing of the tragic loss of another young woman who - like us all - deserved better, and has fallen victim to someone (the case is active and I am deliberately not naming names).

Why do some men think we are fair game? What can we do to help change this?

You red it's just another example of how women have to solve the problems. And how anything affecting us should only ever be investigated or dealt with once everything else is sorted. And yes that means arresting 2 women with a coffee 5 miles from their house , or a man carrying a pot plant comes first.

I watched the Yorkshire Ripper documentary on Netflix the other week, and felt proud to see the women on marches in protest.
Then you realise it feels like it was all in vain. Nothings changed.
I'm so tired of it. And so angry.
Would another match get the point across? A full scale nationwide protest? I'd happy join.

iggly

A couple of years ago there was a local news article about how rapes and assaults weren't even being recorded properly, seems the intention is there from the very beginning to not even try. That's not cuts that's a systemic attitude.

I get aerated at the suggestion women need to curtail their activities to prevent just in case...

Absofuckinglutely!

Talk of women staying in (curfew) when the ripper was about and most police spokesmen bring this up when a killer is around.

How about a curfew on men! It is them (not all) that are doing this!

@Whatwouldscullydo

iggly

A couple of years ago there was a local news article about how rapes and assaults weren't even being recorded properly, seems the intention is there from the very beginning to not even try. That's not cuts that's a systemic attitude.

Austerity has been around for ten years, not two.

If you read my earlier post - I said that the cultural and society norms are part of this. But the cuts have made it easier to point resources away from women and have entrenched further the inherent misogyny in our society.

It’s important to understand that there are so so many layers to this.

I will be interested to see the correlations between under reporting and low conviction rates in respect violence against women, and the level of funding to the criminal justice system, local authorities and police.

I had one incident fairly recently where it didn't even make the police . A friend and I were followed by a man. He started screaming shouting and threatening us. With the assist of a couple of by standers one of us were able to step away from enough to call the police. Call handler could hear him over the phone. So she told us to get a taxi home. Didn't even bother to send someone.

Would have been an easy case too. Lots of cctv, man well known to police. Easy to ID. Witness accounts...

This is currently in the headlines daily in Australia after a number of women came forward with allegations of rape in the Australian House of Parliament.

There are now many discussions around the sexual entitlement of men and a big focus on schools and the culture of entitlement with I believe more than 2000 female students coming forward with their own experiences of sexual assault dating back to 2014.

Several schools have committed to reviewing the curriculum around consent and how and when it's discussed.

Such awful, awful news. If we care about stopping this from happening again then I think there needs to be a thorough investigation into this man and all of the red flags that should have been picked up on. While I can't speak for this individual, people like this often have a history of violence against women, whether it's domestic abuse or watching extreme porn. We need to start taking this behaviour far, far more seriously than we do and stop normalising disgusting, dangerous misogyny.

I've had a lot of shit too.

I've also worked with people who have ended up needing care for various things.

One man sticks in my mind. He used to gloat that he liked to follow women just for kicks. He liked it when they sped up or crossed the road and he could see they were getting scared.

I asked him once if he would ever do anything. He said of course not. He just likes knowing that he could make someone fear for their life.

There must be a lot more like him out there.

(He didn't have a mental illness, just some physical problems as a result of alcoholism).

Before lockdown 2 women were murdered per week in England and Wales. Now it's 3 to 4 women being killed per week. It is hard to believe but it's true and so very sad for the women and their families, imagine their children.

*Women murdered by partners.

@Seatime

Before lockdown 2 women were murdered per week in England and Wales. Now it's 3 to 4 women being killed per week. It is hard to believe but it's true and so very sad for the women and their families, imagine their children.

Jesus, I hadn't seen those stats. That is horrific.

I seen men turn a blind eye to blatantly misogynist jokes and 'banter' too many times to have any optimism that men will get on board with addressing the issue. Most don't give a shit. They pay lip service to it when cornered, but they don't speak up when it really matters.

@ReceptacleForTheRespectable

I seen men turn a blind eye to blatantly misogynist jokes and 'banter' too many times to have any optimism that men will get on board with addressing the issue. Most don't give a shit. They pay lip service to it when cornered, but they don't speak up when it really matters.

This.

But I've been shot down so many times for saying it.

If you've ever worked with a big group of men as a solitary female (or one of just a handful), you'll have seen it everyday.

The mask always drops.

(Yes that could be read as generalising but it's what I've seen in my life).

Really shocked to hear cat calling is still experienced by some. I think I'm lucky that where I live it's just not something I've ever heard, must be lucky. I'm always vocal if I see a woman/ girl who's been made to feel uncomfortable by obvious male attention, particularly when it's girls in uniform, more often than not It's middle aged/ older men ogling in a lascivious manner. It's one thing looking at a woman/man in admiration, another to make anyone feel uncomfortable.

I know OP. It’s hard not to feel absolutely devastated for my young daughters this morning.

If you've ever worked with a big group of men as a solitary female (or one of just a handful), you'll have seen it everyday.

I do male dominated hobbies, and totally agree. It's always the lone female trying to speak up and being laughed at, dismissed and belittled.

Taken from the website of REFUGE:

Almost one in three women aged 16-59 will experience domestic abuse in her lifetime
Office for National Statistics (2019) Domestic abuse in England and Wales overview: November 2019

Two women a week are killed by a current or former partner in England and Wales alone
Office for National Statistics (2019) Homicide in England and Wales: year ending March 2018 (average taken over 10 years)

In the year ending March 2019, 1.6 million women experienced domestic abuse
Office for National Statistics (2019) Domestic abuse victim characteristics, England and Wales: year ending March 2019

I read on another thread that while these statistics (above ^) hold true and are accepted as the "norm" within our justice system , with very little accompanying public outrage, attitudes towards women's safety on the streets won't change either. And I think there is a lot of truth in that.

Also, I would like to know if incidences of "daily" sexual harassment from men towards women on public transport and in places of work for example , are getting worse or not? As the mother of a young woman about to go to university, I am seriously worried about the effects of most young men growing up with access to porn, and to put it bluntly, getting aroused in their formative years looking at images of women being strangled, whipped and penetrated in a violent way. If you Google cases of sexual violence on university campuses across the world, the number of links makes your hair stand on end. I'm no expert but my sense is that this is getting worse, or at least is more overt.

And I'm sorry but I disagree with the sentiment that "we can't do anything, it's up to men to change". Of course it's up to men to change but they haven't and they aren't. Every protest movement in history has started with those who are oppressed taking a stand, taking action, marching, spreading the word, campaigning. We've got to do it.

I would love to think that SE's death will be a watershed moment in this country, but I don't believe it will be.

@Pipepans re: catcalling. I was once walking past a building site (stupidly stereotypical) when suddenly all the men started catcalling and hooting. They were clearly aiming it at a teenager coming the other way (she was carrying schoolbooks FFS - height of exam season) rather than me. I'd never experienced anything like the cacophony of sound and there was nowhere to go, other than to hurry past and keep going (we were trapped on a diverted walkway past the site). I ended up reporting them as I worked for a company that used their services - I used my work email address to do so - and after a bit I got a suitably apologetic email back saying they'd been 'dealt with', but I have never quite believed that they were. I don't think I'll ever be able to get that girl and experience out of my head.

It's got to the stage in my life (and I'm only the same age as SE) that I firmly believe the genuinely 'good' men, who will stand up for women, not tolerate this shit and be genuinely horrified (in the same way that they would for racism, disablism, homophobia etc.) are in a minority, based on my experience.

I've worked as a solitary female for large parts of my career and totally agree with receptacle. Once they forget you are there, the mask does truly slip.

Most men I have worked with do see women as second class citizens who are there to service whatever their needs happen to be, and to moan about and demean when women ask for any form of consideration.

It's not true of all, I've met some real diamonds in my time. They were very much the exception.

So incredibly sad to read the update this morning and that he could have used his police ID card to lure her into his car, utterly disgusting! I cannot even begin to imagine how her friends and family are feeling this morning.
It also raises questions to whether he has done this before and got away with it.

I don't think it's getting any better at all, in fact I'd agree with a PP that it's getting worse.

At 16 I worked in a garage after school and weekends. Some of the sexual comments from mechanics and salesmen were so crude I didn't even know what they meant. It was relentless and every day. Even after I found the guts to tell them to fuck off and they backed off massively there were still constant comments, especially if I happened to make mistakes. Now I'm older I particularly feel sick when I think back to the comments made that I was particularly young looking for my age (I looked young and also never wore make up or anything which combined with my work uniform looked like I was going to school) and the men in their 30s and 40s who were making comments like "legal, but looks like jailbait".

I have two teenage DD's and a teenage DS. My DDs have both had cat calls and random comments. DD1 was approached by a man in his 30s when she was waiting on a bus at 14 and asked if she fancied a fuckbuddy. When she said no he gave her a mouthful of abuse and thankfully her bus came.

DS got his jaw broken when he was 16 for intervening when a girl had been cornered by three boys in fucking school of all places. Girls aren't even safe in school.

DD2 has narcolepsy. Some men at the support group she attends were quite shocked when they were writing lists of their fears as a group exercise and she said that being sexually assaulted or raped when she has cataplexy worries her. They were even more shocked when every single other female in the group said the same, and in fact several told stories of being touched or upskirted when they couldn't protect themselves. Normally by someone they knew as well.

Of all the heartfelt, honest and articulate posts on this thread this line stood out to me the most -

it's worse for him to be accused and have his reputation harmed

It's deemed worse for a man to have his reputation harmed than a woman to have her body and mind harmed, and as men know this, that's what they play on when they want to do something that will harm a woman. So many get out clauses, will she be believed? Can she be discredited in the slightest? Why wasn't she taking care of herself and her own safety?

Men know it's wrong to hurt women, of course they do, but they also know that they can talk themselves out of any blame for what they've done, personally, and that they'll be backed up by society and the justice system.
It's rife, it's in every area of life, it happens every day.

Other men won't take a stand by and large because they know they could be just as guilty one day, maybe they already have been at some point.

Women are in a catch 22 situation, go out, be bold, refuse to be cowed down and get attacked? Well you're at fault for not protecting yourself. And I know if I hadn't taught my DD the signs and how to just basically avoid being in a worrying situation, and she was attacked, I would feel some guilt, because I know this stuff goes on and it's my job to protect her.

I feel like we're up against a wall, if we don't adjust our lives and who we are and a man chooses to attack, well we'll not only be attacked, but likely blamed for it too. But by adjusting our lives and changing who we are and what we do to protect ourselves, it feels like we're almost accepting that this is the way it is.

I suspect predatory men are more than aware of that.