Not really sure why I am writing this, but predatory men

[CormoranStrike]

Not all men of course, but here’s my history - and these are just the ones I remember.

Aged 12 - a man masturbated in front of me as I walked home with friends along a quiet country lane

Aged 15 - doing my paper round in the rain and a man offered me a lift. He did not give off good vibes at all and my spider senses kicked in.

Aged 19 - heavy breathing, sexually explicit phone calls at work.

Aged 30 - colleague kissed me on the back of my neck in the office to say well done about a work thing. I was too stunned to move.

Aged 48 - colleague asks me to go for drinks to discuss a work problem. Then proceeds to blatantly ask for an affair.

I am a very ordinary looking woman. I was a very shy child. I give no indication whatsoever of wanting these approaches.

And yet again my heart sinks hearing of the tragic loss of another young woman who - like us all - deserved better, and has fallen victim to someone (the case is active and I am deliberately not naming names).

Why do some men think we are fair game? What can we do to help change this?

I feel very sad and in disbelief about the senseless loss of a young woman. For what purpose? (Rhetorical question - I don't expect an answer and it seems extremely insensitive to speculate at this point). I just don't understand why this happens.

Its not necessarily just about the risk of something happening, its also the reaction to it happening also.

I was only being friendly!

Wearing a top like that of course you're inviting people to look at your boobs!

Well, why were you walking on your own?

If she'd stayed at home then it wouldn't have happened...

I’m really conscious of teaching my DS (age 3!) to respect and value women as he grows up, and to take a stand where possible against men who don’t. I’m not sure the best way to go about it; obviously I very much hope that he will grow up to be a decent man (and all indicators so far are of a gentle soul!) but I hope I can do whatever possible to ensure he understands the role of all men in this.

I'm angry again tonight.

I think about the 'Gratitude Tax' for taxi drivers: when women give an extra tip just because we're so grateful they haven't assaulted us.

Of the thousand small ways we alter our lives in pursuit of 'safety'.

Of the aching fear we have for our daughters, hoping they'll inherit our 'luck' and make it through to our age alive.

Of the constant stress of living in a country where two women a week are murdered but being required to live 'as if' that isn't true.

Living with that fact for years and years and years - yet our social, legal and political system pretends this isn't true.

We know fatal male violence rarely arises out of nowhere.

More often than not, there will be a pattern of escalation, a pattern of overt misogyny, and very often domestic violence.

But domestic violence is still under-reported snd under-prosecuted.

It is not easy for women - especially women with children - to leave violent men.

Society has chosen not to make it easy.

Society has chosen to virtually ignore male violence against intimate others.

We are so, so far from a system that identifies DV as an early sign of even more violent behaviour and takes it utterly seriously : both fit what it is and for what it might also signify.

But a society that was serious about male violence - that truly recognised it for the absolute nightmare it is - would be looking at DV.

And would name the bloody problem.

And male violence, of course, doesn't just lead to appalling outcomes for women.

I'm sick of pretending not to see a problem that results in two women's deaths a week and affects the way I live my life.

Just sick of it.

Change. It comes incrementally and by challenging and pushing

There is no hope of it changing until we have more equality. More women in power & more women pushing against.
Look how many women are murdered each week & society doesn't really care.
I think we should be able to wear what we want, walk home late etc but then that gets used against you in a rape case for example.

Bring up our girls to have boundaries, respect them and not minimise the actions of anyone pushing those boundaries, but to always have their own money, education and support network and expect their partner to do 50:50 of all childcare etc

Bring up our boys to have boundaries and respect the boundaries of others. To be supportive partners and do 50/50 of everything

@teentipans

Change. It comes incrementally and by challenging and pushing

There is no hope of it changing until we have more equality. More women in power & more women pushing against.
Look how many women are murdered each week & society doesn't really care.
I think we should be able to wear what we want, walk home late etc but then that gets used against you in a rape case for example.

And we get equality by challenging & pushing. Equality won’t be given or gifted we need to agitate for it

Everything @thecatfromjapan said

Oh god. I worked in a pub from age 12 and was subject to the attentions from a paedo neighbour at age 7 and an equally paedo family acquaintance at age 10. I was stalked by a male teacher at age 15 and by an absolute fucking lunatic at 17 and another at 18. I consider myself normal as well!! I've been sexually assaulted to the degree that the men could have gone to prison at least five times by five different men and I am 37 years old. I felt I couldn't speak. I felt I would be blamed.

@Hangingover

HeelsHandbagPerfumeCoffee you're not really reading the room tbh.

I won’t be cowed by men,and I won’t be cowed by women. I don’t need to read the room. I don’t need to follow a prescripted line. Posters are articulate they can disagree with me should they wish

I’m here to discuss they ways in which we collective feel unsafe
How societal norms curtail our spontaneity
To the extent that going out to shop is in itself a hesitant act

I feel furious that this is the world my lovely daughters are going out into

Same. I look at my baby daughter and want to weep sometimes. She has no idea what sort of world surrounds her. I want to keep her safe in my arms forever.

Its just tragic isn't it.

Its so normal I struggle to think of incidents that weren't my fault or don't have an alternative explanation.

I worry for future generations where what would have been red flags to us are normal to them and how bad things have to get to be considered a problem. Especially when girls in particular now are not allowed boundaries.

When police campaigns include posters that blame women for drinking, place the responsibility for staying safe on the women ( how does the last girl who's walked everyone home get home herself officer? ) we really are up against it...

As someone in their early 20s, it shocks me how awful society used to be and what men could get away with. The older I get, the more predatory behaviour seems to be called out but I know that hasn’t always been the case. It’s unbelievable that “boys will be boys” was a cultural norm and an excuse for all of the behaviour you mention.

Unfortunately those ideals are still held today. Victims still aren’t taken seriously, they’re still told how they must have contributed to his actions, every inch of their life is exposed if the case does go to trial etc.

All because they happened to be born with a vagina. It’s actually depressing

@Bordois

Its not just the risk of being killed, its the almost endemic levels of male sexual entitlement and the reaction when women dare say no.

I avoid men as much as possible

I don't care about NAMALT

I can just about afford to swap my flat for a house but l wouldn't feel safe, because men.

Here, if I press my panic alarm button, the neighbouring flats would hear.

If I got myself a little house and garden, I'd feel very exposed because people can see you come and go, a big block of flats gives anonymity to an extent.

So many ways we can't live the lives we want because men. A friend in a Board of Directors is getting pissed off with the MD because he constantly makes crude comments. No one to complain to. He's the boss.

@thecatfromjapan

I'm angry again tonight.

I think about the 'Gratitude Tax' for taxi drivers: when women give an extra tip just because we're so grateful they haven't assaulted us.

Of the thousand small ways we alter our lives in pursuit of 'safety'.

Of the aching fear we have for our daughters, hoping they'll inherit our 'luck' and make it through to our age alive.

Of the constant stress of living in a country where two women a week are murdered but being required to live 'as if' that isn't true.

Living with that fact for years and years and years - yet our social, legal and political system pretends this isn't true.

We know fatal male violence rarely arises out of nowhere.

More often than not, there will be a pattern of escalation, a pattern of overt misogyny, and very often domestic violence.

But domestic violence is still under-reported snd under-prosecuted.

It is not easy for women - especially women with children - to leave violent men.

Society has chosen not to make it easy.

Society has chosen to virtually ignore male violence against intimate others.

We are so, so far from a system that identifies DV as an early sign of even more violent behaviour and takes it utterly seriously : both fit what it is and for what it might also signify.

But a society that was serious about male violence - that truly recognised it for the absolute nightmare it is - would be looking at DV.

And would name the bloody problem.

And male violence, of course, doesn't just lead to appalling outcomes for women.

I'm sick of pretending not to see a problem that results in two women's deaths a week and affects the way I live my life.

Just sick of it.

Yes, all of this. Just so sick of it.... and it never seems to get better.

@scalphelp

As someone in their early 20s, it shocks me how awful society used to be and what men could get away with. The older I get, the more predatory behaviour seems to be called out but I know that hasn’t always been the case. It’s unbelievable that “boys will be boys” was a cultural norm and an excuse for all of the behaviour you mention.

Unfortunately those ideals are still held today. Victims still aren’t taken seriously, they’re still told how they must have contributed to his actions, every inch of their life is exposed if the case does go to trial etc.

All because they happened to be born with a vagina. It’s actually depressing

Used to be? I'm 45. Nothing has changed. You still have to be really wary of men.

The fact is that these fuckers want us to feel too afraid to go out, to rely on them for 'protection', to lessen our participation in public life through fear....

Women restricting themselves in that way benefits men, not women. Women will still be harmed and killed by men even if we all do nothing but stay at home, but the men will benefit through not having to compete with us and deal with us in public life.

I refuse to feel too afraid to go out at night. I refuse to feel too afraid to participate in life, to put myself out there. Fuck them.

sadly'twas always thus!
Many moons ago when I was a late teenager , I was attending hospital for a fairly minor eye condition. I was attending a consultant on an out patient basis, and one appointment I was seen by a different doctor. Obviously he had to get fairly close to look into my eyes, but was deffo much closer than needed, got rid of the table between us etc. Then said that because I had changed my medication ( true) he needed to check that there had been no skin reaction, so I was to take off my blouse so he could check. I started to take my blouse off, but then my sense kicked in , I refused and confirmed that I was fine! Conversation/ situation then deteriorated rapidly and badly with invitations to view blue films , grabbing at me etc, etc. I ran all the way home - told my mum and dad and he reported him. I remember I was upset by the incidentand kept thinking it was my fault , I must have given off some sort of signal! 2 months later he was arrested for attempted rape. I had trusted him because he was in a position of trust, a consultant in a hospital ! The events of today reminded me of this episode and how easy it is to be lulled into a false sense of security , and I am deeply saddened that things are no better all these years on. ( I am aware that this a relatively minor incident, but unfortunately one of many, I do not mean to compare what happened to some of the truly awful things that others have suffered)

The fact is that these fuckers want us to feel too afraid to go out, to rely on them for 'protection', to lessen our participation in public life through fear

Yep. With the bar set so low, by the arseholes, the so called "nice" ones don't really have to do a thing to have the appeal. We must really stop viewing regular normal behaviour exhibited by human beings as a sign of being a "nice guy" .

And let's not make any mistake about this - women being afraid to go out alone benefits pretty much all men, including the 'good' ones.

Men get to escape housework and childcare by going out and doing solo hobbies all day. The kind of hobbies which women express safety concerns about doing alone.

Men are happy to travel back from work very late, they are seen to stay late while the women in their team don't.

There are a million different ways in which women are told that they should limit themselves and participate less in the public sphere. None of them benefit women in the slightest, and it doesn't even keep us safe.

@ReceptacleForTheRespectable

The fact is that these fuckers want us to feel too afraid to go out, to rely on them for 'protection', to lessen our participation in public life through fear....

Women restricting themselves in that way benefits men, not women. Women will still be harmed and killed by men even if we all do nothing but stay at home, but the men will benefit through not having to compete with us and deal with us in public life.

I refuse to feel too afraid to go out at night. I refuse to feel too afraid to participate in life, to put myself out there. Fuck them.

That explanation of what they want is spot on.

@HeelsHandbagPerfumeCoffee

Start individually, seek likeminded friends/colleagues to try change attitudes & behaviour

I don't think things will ever change . Most of us have 1st hand experience of the fear that men can cause . I hope i have done my best to make my 2 sons aware of their behaviour towards women , i hope they are aware of their father being respectful and kind to women. I pray that my daughter never knows what it feels like to fear a man. My heart goes out to that poor family tonight .

I’m feeling a lot of what has been said on this thread tonight. Over the last few months, maybe having more time, I’ve talked a lot to my partner and friends about things I didn’t like in my younger years at the hands of men, but accepted because ‘it’s just how things were’. As I get older I find myself getting angrier about this, the thought of my children living in a world where although things are talked about more, the same shit is still happening. Men just taking what they want, doing what they want, making women feel uncomfortable, abusing them, killing them....and excuses are made, sometimes even by judges.

Such sad news today. My thoughts and prayers are with her loved ones. But also, how do we stop living in a society where this keeps happening. I didn’t know this woman, but I feel very emotional about what has happened. Another young woman’s life has been just taken away, it is heartbreaking. And there will be more women in the future that this will happen to.

Utterly frustrating that some men still see women as fair game. My DH and I are often shocked by how often men still openly ogle and discuss women sexually. Do these men not have daughters, sisters, mothers?

Cat calling is thankfully rare now, however there are still work places where women are discussed graphically, and judged on looks alone.

Sadly so many teens and even pre teens see sending nude pictures to each other as normal, and do not see it as a crime.

It is truly shocking that even the most innocent Google search can lead to some children unintentionally viewing indecent imagery, including sexual violence towards women.

I agree that much more needs to be done to address attitudes to women.
It's frightening that on average two women are killed each week due to domestic violence. Can you imagine if two women a week were dying due to a serious adverse reaction to the Covid vaccine? More notice would be taken.

We need to educate our sons about respect.

The thing is, women are doing what they can to change things. Campaigning. Fighting for our rights. Raising awareness. Over and over and over.

The question is, when are men going to get on board on the same scale? When are men going to start calling out the behaviour of other men? When are men going to raise their voices about violence against women. When are men going to demand laws that protect women improve and change? Yes ok, some men are speaking out, but they just aren't fucking loud enough.