Poor, poor woman

[Mookie81]

Complete lack of support and nowhere to turn.
A terrible deed but I feel so sorry for her.
And where the fuck was her ex? Living in Spain while she was driven to despair.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9186243/Olga-Freemans-friends-reveal-agony-trapped-flat-son-loved-dearly.html

5zeds- you may want to look up the legal definition of murder.

Actually murder requires an intent to kill and Of sound mind and discretion (i.e. sane) Ms Freeman does not fulfil that criteria

Diminished responsibility criteria
There is a four-stage test of which all four elements must be proved:

1.Whether the defendant was suffering from an abnormality of mental functioning

1. If so, whether it had arisen from a recognised medical condition
2. If so, whether it had substantially impaired his ability either to understand the nature of his conduct or to form a rational judgment or to exercise self-control (or any combination)
3. If so, whether it provided an explanation for his conduct

And evidence from a psychiatrist to attest there was mental illness

@Fab90 google says

What is the difference between murder and manslaughter? Manslaughter is defined in the UK as murder without premeditation.

I’m not a lawyer though so I am happy to call it “killing” if that’s a better description?

[quote 5zeds]@Arobase murder is one person taking another’s life. That’s what she did.[/quote]
By that logic, then people in the armed forces are murderers, as are doctors who turn off life support machines, and people who kill in self-defence or the defence of others.

Actually, of course, the definition of murder includes the fact that, where the killer acted with diminished responsibility, it is not murder but manslaughter. If a person is found guilty of manslaughter, by definition they are not guilty of murder. Which is what the court accepted in this case.

Manslaughter is defined in the UK as murder without premeditation

No, it isn't.

Ahhh as I said I’m not a lawyer @Arobase she “killed her child” I think there are niceties of language which can be confusing. Most people use the term “murder” to mean killing someone. My understanding was manslaughter was a form of murder not distinct from it.

www.lawtonslaw.co.uk/resources/what-is-the-sentence-for-manslaughter-how-many-years-could-you-face-in-prison/

This is the first hit if you google murder or manslaughter uk....

@5zeds

No, it's all about intention. To find someone guilty of murder, it has to be proved that a reasonable person would have known that their actions would result in death or serious injury. Hence, the mum in this case is guilty of manslaughter by reason of diminished responsibility.

No, that’s not manslaughter definition
Manslaughter is either voluntary manslaughter (with intent) or involuntary manslaughter (no intent to kill or cause gbh)

Newsflash, @5zeds: solicitors are not infallible. I notice this little blurb was written by someone who was the firm's managing director. I once worked in a firm whose managing director was a solicitor previously working in criminal law; I would never have gone to him for legal advice in a million years.

I don't think we have a distinction between voluntary and involuntary manslaughter in this country, do we? As I understand it, that's an American distinction. Instead we define the reason, in this case it's diminished responsibility.

Similarly, in America there's first degree and second degree murder, which we don't have here.

Diminished responsibility arises from the impaired mental state, murder requires the accused to be of sound mind and discretion. Ms Freeman evidently was not of sound mind
Plus psychiatric reports attest to that too

I don't think the English legal system distinguishes between voluntary and involuntary manslaughter, does it? That's an American distinction. Instead, we give the reason, as in diminished responsibility in this case.

Similarly, we don't distinguish between first and second degree murder.

Sorry, I didn't realise the previous post had been successful, hence I reposted it.

Mittens, yes there is a distinction between voluntary and involuntary manslaughter both attract different sentences

I’m sure on balance anonymous on the internet probably gives better legalese advice than named solicitors website. As I said, she “killed him” if that makes a difference to you.

diminished responsibility can be applied to both murder and manslaughter as it relates to mental state of the accused, and requires psychiatric reports

CPS regard Freeman case, sentencing 11Feb 2021

I did study law for a year in this country and what I was taught was that a defendant could only be convicted of murder if a reasonable person would know that their action would cause death or serious injury to the victim. So I'm admittedly struggling with the idea of diminished responsibility being applied to murder.

Admittedly, it was only an evening class I took about 15 years ago.

@HeelsHandbagPerfumeCoffee

I'm very interested in what you say about manslaughter. I know that there's diminished responsibility, gross negligence, death by dangerous driving, provocation etc.

Gah typos,sorry
diminished responsibility can not be applied to both murder and manslaughter as it relates to mental state of the accused, and requires psychiatric reports

@HeelsHandbagPerfumeCoffee I should have realised that was a typo. Thank you for clarifying.

it only seems to stand as an “explanation” if it’s a disabled person who’s the victim

I don’t think I agree with this. I recall an horrendous case a few years ago in which a mother suffering from postnatal psychosis killed her very small children (there were two or possibly three children, IIRC). The children were, as far as I know, neurotypical and did not have disabilities. I remember there being a fair bit of sympathy for the woman at the time. Certainly I felt sympathy for her, whilst simultaneously being horrified at what the children had been through.

Sen parents hung out to dry as usual. The father should be held responsible for this too. Very sad.

I feel desperately sorry for this lady.

In cases like these, the father and extended family are always quick to declare their love of the dead child - where are they with the day to day tasks?!
Can anyone of them honestly say they couldn't possibly do what this lady did in that moment of despair?
No one, hand on heart can say that they couldn't get to that low point.
Instead of judging women like this l, the family members and father should be ashamed of themselves.