Woman thrown out of Sainsbury's for not wearing a mask.

[Viviennemary]

When asked why she wasn't wearing one she told the police they were not allowed to challenge her or ask about her disability. (wrong apparently). She said she'd be taking them to court. Police have criticised ministers for giving conflicting advice. I think it's time this was cleared up. It's far too vague. So seems like people do need some proof of the reasons they can't wear a mask.

05Gwenhwyfar

"Are we just really unlucky in this country with the number of people who are unable to wear a mask for up to 20 or 30 minutes, or do all counties have similar numbers?"

No, they don't. The whole exemptions thing is just 'not a thing' where I am on the continent.
...So yes, there is something strange going on that the UK has so many more people with these disabilities.

I agree with this - We don't have this, it just doesn't happen, it isn't even a topic. Everyone wears a mask. The town nearest me has a large population of people with disabilities of different types who are in the community, work in sheltered workplaces, do their shopping etc, when you see them, they all have masks.
At school in or out of class, at work, in small shops and on the market, in supermarkets, in the street - everyone over the age of about 10 has a mask. I have never even heard of the possibility of exemptions. It is a UK thing and it seems very strange from our side of the channel.

@LangClegsInSpace - So she was asked to leave for being an anti-mask arsehole. I don't think that's a protected characteristic.

@PlanDeRaccordement

Thanks. Sorry to have missed it, it’s axlong thread. Anyone know which page the link is on? I’m not happy about people faking exemptions and staging conflict. That’s the last thing the truly exempt need.

I think her Twitter account would suggest that she went there deliberately, ready to cause a disturbance and to film. Anti mask and anti vaxx and thinks there are micro chips in vaccines. I saw her Tweet on a dreadful thread full of those people who say covid is a myth and hospitals are empty with desperate doctors trying to convince them otherwise. I should really avoid those threads. My impression was that the policewoman wouldn't read the piece of paper because she wasn't there to decide whether the woman was mask exempt, she was there because the store called the police when the woman refused to leave.

@ProfessorSlocombe

In the eyes of the law, does lying about having a disability to cause trouble enjoy the same protected status as race?

Who decides what race a person is ?

And here we have it. Abuse the system and protections are eroded. Lying about your race to cause trouble is equally as wrong clearly. Some people really need to grow up and dragging racial equality laws into this swamp is the last thing needed. It seems like agitation for agitations sake. We all know the law. This woman clearly did as she was carrying around her photocopy summary! Just because you are allowed to do something doesn’t mean you should though. I despair of a certain sub section of the population here when I speak to friends abroad and hear how the situation can be handled in places where people have more of a sense of the communal good.

@Madamfrog

05Gwenhwyfar

"Are we just really unlucky in this country with the number of people who are unable to wear a mask for up to 20 or 30 minutes, or do all counties have similar numbers?"

No, they don't. The whole exemptions thing is just 'not a thing' where I am on the continent.
...So yes, there is something strange going on that the UK has so many more people with these disabilities.

I agree with this - We don't have this, it just doesn't happen, it isn't even a topic. Everyone wears a mask. The town nearest me has a large population of people with disabilities of different types who are in the community, work in sheltered workplaces, do their shopping etc, when you see them, they all have masks.
At school in or out of class, at work, in small shops and on the market, in supermarkets, in the street - everyone over the age of about 10 has a mask. I have never even heard of the possibility of exemptions. It is a UK thing and it seems very strange from our side of the channel.

I think this shows a massive cultural difference between U.K. and the rest of Europe. Our legal systems and police systems are entirely different. People in Europe have police descended from the military and laws telling them what they can do.

In the U.K. the police police by consent and have a civilian background and we are allowed to do what we want unless specifically prohibited by law. A much better system for so many reasons.

This creates a fundamentally different mindset ingrained over centuries. In a world of globalisation these sorts of things are often dismissed but they are there. I suspect this is one of the fundamental reasons behind Brexit.

People will comply more in civil law countries to restrictions to freedom generally which do not directly contravene their positive rights.

It’s not a popular thing to say but there are different social mindsets at play.

This might mean someone is really struggling wearing a mask in Paris, they might spend the entire day getting themselves in a mindset to go out for 10 min. They might no go out at all. They might be just about able to wear a mask but doing so brings great psychological distress.

It’s not helpful to compare cultures. People react differently between cultures.

I agree with others on the thread that there should be some recognised scheme for people with issues like this as it would give confidence to all concerned. And legal backup against discrimination etc

Which issues? Disability? Possibly would still be abused. I could ( if this was a thing) legally get an exemption. Then nothing to stop me flogging it on the black market. Assuming there was one. And I'm fairly sure there would be.

If you mean assault and rape victims, then how do you prove it to the scheme, probably to be on the safe side the scheme would just wave through anyone who said they had been raped and had their face covered. Because no one wants to be the person to tell a raped woman that she just has to get over it. Plus so many rapes are not even reported. How would that work? Would you need a conviction in an actual court to prove the rape? Cos I can tell you with the current system there are very very few convictions.

50,000 rapes are reported each year, out of those around 10,000 will get to a court, out of those 10,000 a couple of hundred will result in a man being found guilty of rape.
More rapes and assaults happen than are reported, estimated 400,000 per year.

Lying about your race to cause trouble is equally as wrong clearly.

but how can you "lie about your race" ? Who decides what the reality is when a person as white as the alpine snow tells you they are "black" ? Do you get to say "no you ain't sonny Jim (or Jane)" and correct the information they put on their form ?

Or do you not get to say anything and allow that assertion to stand ?

These are serious questions. Not frivolities. If we are allowed to self define our race, the surely there can't be a wrong answer ? And if there is, then why were we ever wasting time allowing people to self identify to start with ?

Probably not the thread to be asking these questions, but it is in "active" so piqued my attention.

There is no requirement to prove, in court or otherwise, that you are unable to wear a mask.How many times does it need to be said?

It is not about how often you need to say it, but whether there is any truth in the statement.

As far as I know, there have been no cases where a non mask wearer has been in court and this has idea of @NikeDeLaSwoosh has been tested by a judge and jury.

Link to a case @NikeDeLaSwoosh ?

@Ihatefish

"People in Europe have police descended from the military and laws telling them what they can do."

We have civilian police AND police who are technically part of the army.
Our laws actually say what you can't do - if it isn't legislated against, then you can do it. That is actually the basic principle of our legal system.

Actually I think we just get on with it because we are fed up with there being a pandemic. I am surprised that it isn't the same in the UK, after all you are celebrated for your stiff upper lip and civic spirit but there seem to be many entitled people who don't conform to that stereotype.

"This creates a fundamentally different mindset ingrained over centuries. In a world of globalisation these sorts of things are often dismissed but they are there. I suspect this is one of the fundamental reasons behind Brexit."

Rubbish.
The reasons behind Brexit was scepticism about immigration and wanting to reclaim sovereignty.
Nothing to do with policing.

"People will comply more in civil law countries to restrictions to freedom generally which do not directly contravene their positive rights."

I disagree with this too. Where I am, people are generally LESS respectful of rules than in the UK. The difference happens when there is enforcement. If you know you can get a hefty fine or be denied access to the shop if you don't wear the mask, then you'll wear it.

There should be a standard letter of exemption that GP's can hand out based on health reasons. It need not go into details. Just Miss X is exempted from wearing mask in shops and public places due to having a valid medical exemption. GP 's surgeries could send them out for to those eligible.

I think it is helpful to compare cultures actually. Having a closed mindset is never a good thing.
It is not just Europe that is handling the mask issue differently. The friend I spoke to is in Canada. Their police are certainly not descended from the military.
Some of the individualistic behaviour here is quite similar to some sections of the US population. It’s not going too well there either.

You would absolutely have the right to challenge an unlawful policy in your workplace, even if it had no direct impact on you. As an employee of the company, you have the right to argue that it indirectly impacts you.

Or do you personally have to be black, or a member of a minority Ethnic group to challenge racism where you see it?

You can only make a claim for direct or indirect discrimination if you are yourself affected, however you do not necessarily have to have the protected characteristic yourself. You can be discriminated against because someone perceives you to have a particular protected characteristic even if you don't. You can also be discriminated against 'by association' - e.g. if you are using the mask exemption for those who are accompanying or assisting someone who relies on lipreading and you are refused entry. This would still be disability discrimination even if it wasn't you who had the disability, but the person you were assisting.

You can make a claim for harassment in relation to a protected characteristic whether or not you share the protected characteristic yourself. This is not the same law as criminal harassment (usually related to stalking). The EA says that harassment is prohibited conduct and defines it as any unwanted conduct related to a protected characteristic that has the purpose or effect of violating your dignity, or creating an intimidating, hostile, degrading, humiliating or offensive environment for you.

Example from the statutory code: A shopkeeper racially abuses a black customer. As a result of the racial abuse, a white customer is offended and could bring a claim of racial harassment.

Also of course, anybody can write a letter of complaint whether they are directly affected or not. Most reputable businesses, if shown that they are acting unlawfully, will want to amend their practices to avoid the danger of future litigation.

@JinglingHellsBells really, you havent seen any single disability on any thread diagnosed where a dr or medical professional agrees that a mask cannot be worn?

I am autistic, I have sensory issues as part of that. I have a diagnosis confirmed by a dr, a psychologist and a consultant. I cannot wear a mask. I tried, and each time it affected me worse than the last so now if I wear one for even 30 seconds I meltdown immediately and then go into a shutdown for 24 hours.

I have 3 kids, all neurodiverse, all with allergies, and my husband is also most likely autistic although undiagnosed (it has been suggested to him by mental health professionals that he could be). I have to be able to function to look after my family and I also have to be able to buy the allergy friendly foods and toiletries my family needs. Between us we have around 10 different allergies. I have no choice but to go to the pharmacy, to the supermarket, etc, just like many other people with hidden disabilities. Being mask exempt is not limited to not being able to breathe oxygen through a mask.

Can someone answer why a genuinely mask exempt person would want to go maskless into a shop?

What if there were six/seven/twenty other maskless people in there? Do you care if anyone wears a mask at all? Are you bothered about transmitting the virus yourself?

As a potentially exempt person I can’t imagine dicing with catching covid. As just a person I can’t imagine being an arsehole.

It’s simple. No mask. No entry.

@IrmaFayLear I am exempt and I care, I go at quiet times without my mask and I am as quick as I can be. I don't want to go maskless, I have to go maskless. And I appreciate all the other masked people wearing masks and everyone who keeps a 2m distance as that means that I have less chance of picking up covid. I also keep 2m away, avoid handling things, and make sure to have santised hands before entering. I do as much as I can to prevent passing it on myself incase I was asymptomatic. Including stepping back if people come too close as happens frequently at busier times.

[quote DinosaurOfFire]@JinglingHellsBells really, you havent seen any single disability on any thread diagnosed where a dr or medical professional agrees that a mask cannot be worn?

I am autistic, I have sensory issues as part of that. I have a diagnosis confirmed by a dr, a psychologist and a consultant. I cannot wear a mask. I tried, and each time it affected me worse than the last so now if I wear one for even 30 seconds I meltdown immediately and then go into a shutdown for 24 hours.

I have 3 kids, all neurodiverse, all with allergies, and my husband is also most likely autistic although undiagnosed (it has been suggested to him by mental health professionals that he could be). I have to be able to function to look after my family and I also have to be able to buy the allergy friendly foods and toiletries my family needs. Between us we have around 10 different allergies. I have no choice but to go to the pharmacy, to the supermarket, etc, just like many other people with hidden disabilities. Being mask exempt is not limited to not being able to breathe oxygen through a mask.[/quote]
But surely you can order online if it's too stressful otherwise?

@middleager I do for the majority of food, thankfully I've managed to book a delivery slot most weeks. But some things like my daughters milk substitute can only be bought in a seperate supermarket, where I don't reach the minimum spend for click and collect or delivery. Paying a £4 surcharge plus the collection fee for 2l of milk would mean her milk would triple in price, it is already £4.20 for 2l. Also toiletry ingredients arent always listed online, so I have to physically read the bottles especially as ingredients change all the time.

I honestly think the number of truly exempt who also cannot possibly shop online is tiny .

But it would be appalling if shops had to abandon all hope of enforcing mask wearing because of five people in the entire nation.

But surely you can order online if it's too stressful otherwise?

So an extra cost for the less able ?

The law says that unless you are exempt you must wear a mask, not only in shops, but also in pretty much all indoor public spaces (when they reopen), on all public transport and in taxis.

When the mask law came in, Hancock said it would be there 'for the forseeable future'.

Some people seem to think it's fine to exclude some disabled people from all indoor public life and remove their means of getting to work, appointments etc., for the forseeable future, simply because they are unable to wear a mask.

It's not fine, it's completely disproportionate.

People unable to wear a mask are not necessarily disabled, so I can’t see that it’s disablism.

Then you need to read up on indirect discrimination.

@LangClegsInSpace

The law says that unless you are exempt you must wear a mask, not only in shops, but also in pretty much all indoor public spaces (when they reopen), on all public transport and in taxis.

When the mask law came in, Hancock said it would be there 'for the forseeable future'.

Some people seem to think it's fine to exclude some disabled people from all indoor public life and remove their means of getting to work, appointments etc., for the forseeable future, simply because they are unable to wear a mask.

It's not fine, it's completely disproportionate.

I am so tied of seeing the word 'disabled' when noone has actually said what it means in terms of mask wearing (other than someone with PTSD after a violent attack or who needs to lipread.)

Drs have gone onto TV- very well informed drs- to say there are few if any medical reasons for not wearing a mask.

What disability would prohibit wearing one?