Page 16 | Woman thrown out of Sainsbury's for not wearing a mask.

Viviennemary · 2021-01-18T10:01:32+00:00

When asked why she wasn't wearing one she told the police they were not allowed to challenge her or ask about her disability. (wrong apparently). She said she'd be taking them to court. Police have criticised ministers for giving conflicting advice. I think it's time this was cleared up. It's far too vague. So seems like people do need some proof of the reasons they can't wear a mask.

NikeDeLaSwoosh · 18/01/2021 15:22

@Haffiana

If a person has been prevented from going into a shop because they’re not wearing a mask, that is the prima facie unlawful discrimination.

If they were prevented because not wearing 'proper' clothes, eg pyjamas, would that be discrimination?

Possibly.

If there were a rule stating that, for example, only shorts may be worn, or only vest tops, then yes, that could fall foul of the Equalities Act, on the grounds that it disproportionately impacts Muslim women (indirect discrimination)

Whenever I see signs in petrol stations stating that people must have their face visible for age determination purposes, I do wonder how that would go in court.

It is an example of indirect discrimination, but I guess somebody has decided that the risk of selling petrol to kids is worse.

It’s an interesting area, for sure.

NikeDeLaSwoosh · 18/01/2021 15:25

@Haffiana

We have whole riots to protest discrimination against black people. It wouldn’t be considered unreasonable for a black person to take umbrage at being ejected from a shop on the grounds of their race. They would be expected to be shouting and agitated.

How would it be demonstrated that they were ejected on the grounds of their race?

This would be a civil matter, therefore the burden of proof is that of the balance of probability (not beyond reasonable doubt).

MilkTwoSugarsThanks · 18/01/2021 15:25

@NikeDeLaSwoosh

In the eyes of the law, disability and race enjoy the same protected status.

In the eyes of the law, does lying about having a disability to cause trouble enjoy the same protected status as race?

Haffiana · 18/01/2021 15:26

She then said that Sainsbury’s would be liable for £9,000 fine for discrimination against a mask exempt person

Except she wasn't a mask exempt person.

ProfessorSlocombe · 18/01/2021 15:29

In the eyes of the law, does lying about having a disability to cause trouble enjoy the same protected status as race?

Who decides what race a person is ?

NikeDeLaSwoosh · 18/01/2021 15:30

@bobbojobbo

There is no requirement to prove, in court or otherwise, that you are unable to wear a mask.How many times does it need to be said?

You can say it a billion times, YOU ARE STILL WRONG.

Think of it this way, if I want to sue my employer for discriminating against me on the grounds of maternity, at some point I am going to have to show that I had a baby. I can't just say that I did and thats the end of that.
If you want to show that you have been discriminated against on the grounds of disablity, there has to be a disability, and you have to show it. You can't claim to be discriminated against without showing there is a basis to claim discrimination.

This is very basic stuff, if you don't understand it, stop talking.

Putting it in capitals doesn’t make you any less wrong.

You would absolutely have the right to challenge an unlawful policy in your workplace, even if it had no direct impact on you. As an employee of the company, you have the right to argue that it indirectly impacts you.

Or do you personally have to be black, or a member of a minority Ethnic group to challenge racism where you see it?

PlanDeRaccordement · 18/01/2021 15:30

@Haffiana

She then said that Sainsbury’s would be liable for £9,000 fine for discrimination against a mask exempt person

Except she wasn't a mask exempt person.

She said she was in the video. Did you not watch it? How do you know she isn’t?

NikeDeLaSwoosh · 18/01/2021 15:31

[quote MilkTwoSugarsThanks]@NikeDeLaSwoosh

In the eyes of the law, disability and race enjoy the same protected status.

In the eyes of the law, does lying about having a disability to cause trouble enjoy the same protected status as race?[/quote]
I’m sorry, I’m not sure I follow you here?

Haffiana · 18/01/2021 15:31

The police asked her why she wasn’t wearing a mask, she said she was exempt. They then asked her for proof of her exemption, say an exemption card, she responded correctly that according to the law one is not required. They then asked what her disability was, and she said that they were not doctors and per the law cannot ask her what her disability is. She then showed them the printout from the government website backing up what she was saying, and the police refused to look at it. They then said that the Sainsbury’s manager was refusing to provide her service and she had to leave. She then said that Sainsbury’s would be liable for £9,000 fine for discrimination against a mask exempt person. She said a few times that this is all on the government website and that the police should know this because it’s the law. The police said it’s not the law (wrong).

So again for the sake of argument... Let's look at this AGAIN.

If she had said that it was discrimination against black people to refuse her service, and she was in fact white, then would it be discrimination?

Haffiana · 18/01/2021 15:33

She said she was in the video. Did you not watch it? How do you know she isn’t?

I don't know. The question is whether it would matter in a court of law if she was claiming discrimination.

Oldbutstillgotit · 18/01/2021 15:36

A local independent shop has put up a sign saying they will not allow anyone in if they are not wearing a face covering . They say they are sympathetic to those who cannot wear a mask however on balance they feel it is not unreasonable to expect someone to wear a mask for the very short time they are on their shop ( small bakers).

Aloethere · 18/01/2021 15:37

These threads always come across as so dramatic and childish. The law says I don't have to, maybe so but you still come across as a dick. Nobody likes wearing a mask but they do it anyway the least you can do if you aren't wearing one and a shop assistant asks why is say 'I'm really sorry but I can't wear one because of x', most likely they don't even care what is wrong with you but they have to ask because of management.
You don't need to go into great detail but when people are going out of their way for you it is polite to at least not be a confrontational dick. We are all making sacrifices right now and giving a generic answer to a question you may be asked a few times instead of getting shitty and quoting the law like someone with a wiki law degree and giving staff hassle ranks really low in the list of sacrifices people are making.

NikeDeLaSwoosh · 18/01/2021 15:38

@Haffiana

She said she was in the video. Did you not watch it? How do you know she isn’t?

I don't know. The question is whether it would matter in a court of law if she was claiming discrimination.

It’s all new law, so not entirely clear how it would play in court.

I would argue that the new legislation gives ‘inability to wear a mask’ the same protected status as the characteristics described in the Equalities Act. It simultaneously states that it must be taken at the word of the individual, asking for proof is not permitted.

Therefore, I think, if you’ve been refused entry to a shop, or otherwise discriminated against on the grounds of mask wearing, then yes, I think you have a case, disabled or not.

Ihatefish · 18/01/2021 15:40

I would love to know how many people on here that are saying anyone can wear a mask or if not stay at home have done any of the following

Post on social media anything suggesting support for people suffering from mental illness

Put anything on social media decrying people being put at a disadvantage about things out of their control eg race/gender etc

Would be horrified if they turned up at a supermarket stating no Muslims

Have attended diversity events at work and become some sort of Allie.

MilkTwoSugarsThanks · 18/01/2021 15:40

@NikeDeLaSwoosh

The woman in the video promotes herself as an anti-masker. It doesn't take a massive leap to come the conclusion, based on the balance of probabilities, that she does not has any disability.

NikeDeLaSwoosh · 18/01/2021 15:40

@Oldbutstillgotit

A local independent shop has put up a sign saying they will not allow anyone in if they are not wearing a face covering . They say they are sympathetic to those who cannot wear a mask however on balance they feel it is not unreasonable to expect someone to wear a mask for the very short time they are on their shop ( small bakers).

Then they are breaking the law.

This decision is not theirs to make, Parliament (Well, the executive anyway) has already decided this point, and they need to follow the law

PlanDeRaccordement · 18/01/2021 15:40

The daily mail article says
“Although there is no legal requirement for people to carry a badge to prove they are medically exempt, police are entitled to ask for proof and can ask someone to leave or fine them if this isn't provided.”

But how are mask exempt to prove this? And how would they know they need to, when the Gov guidance says:

“Exemption cards
If you have an age, health or disability reason for not wearing a face covering:

you do not routinely need to show any written evidence of this
you do not need show an exemption card
This means that you do not need to seek advice or request a letter from a medical professional about your reason for not wearing a face covering.

However, some people may feel more comfortable showing something that says they do not have to wear a face covering. This could be in the form of an exemption card, badge or even a home-made sign.

Carrying an exemption card or badge is a personal choice and is not required by law.”

www.gov.uk/government/publications/face-coverings-when-to-wear-one-and-how-to-make-your-own/face-coverings-when-to-wear-one-and-how-to-make-your-own

Whythesadface · 18/01/2021 15:41

There is an easy answer.
No mask, no entry.
But have staff willing to do your shop while you wait at the door.

PlanDeRaccordement · 18/01/2021 15:43

[quote MilkTwoSugarsThanks]@NikeDeLaSwoosh

The woman in the video promotes herself as an anti-masker. It doesn't take a massive leap to come the conclusion, based on the balance of probabilities, that she does not has any disability.[/quote]
Where? Please share this evidence that she “promotes herself as an anti-masker”. In the video she wasn’t dodging the question and referred to “my disability” several times.

CheckYoSelf · 18/01/2021 15:44

@PlanDeRaccordement

I watched the video and this poor woman was definitely discriminated against. She wasn’t screeching. She was flustered and understandably upset but didn’t shout or get rude. The police asked her why she wasn’t wearing a mask, she said she was exempt. They then asked her for proof of her exemption, say an exemption card, she responded correctly that according to the law one is not required. They then asked what her disability was, and she said that they were not doctors and per the law cannot ask her what her disability is. She then showed them the printout from the government website backing up what she was saying, and the police refused to look at it. They then said that the Sainsbury’s manager was refusing to provide her service and she had to leave. She then said that Sainsbury’s would be liable for £9,000 fine for discrimination against a mask exempt person. She said a few times that this is all on the government website and that the police should know this because it’s the law. The police said it’s not the law (wrong). Then she said she’d be taking this to court. The police then said see you in court sarcastically.

poor woman paaaaaaaaaa!!!

The woman is a self-proclaimed 'anti-masker', she admitted on Twitter it was a set up, she had intended to antagonise and film the whole thing

Save your concern for those who genuinely cannot wear a mask.

MilkTwoSugarsThanks · 18/01/2021 15:45

@PlanDeRaccordement - On her social media. Someone linked to it upthread.

PlanDeRaccordement · 18/01/2021 15:46

@CheckYoSelf
Link please? Fair enough if it was staged but also how were the Sainsbury staff and police to know that? They still did not handle it correctly.

trulydelicious · 18/01/2021 15:47

@PlanDeRaccordement

She wasn’t screeching. She was flustered and understandably upset but didn’t shout or get rude

The only reason why she's so composed is because she is filming the incident to distribute to the media later

PlanDeRaccordement · 18/01/2021 15:47

Thanks. Sorry to have missed it, it’s axlong thread. Anyone know which page the link is on?
I’m not happy about people faking exemptions and staging conflict. That’s the last thing the truly exempt need.

LangClegsInSpace · 18/01/2021 15:50

[quote MilkTwoSugarsThanks]@NikeDeLaSwoosh

The woman in the video promotes herself as an anti-masker. It doesn't take a massive leap to come the conclusion, based on the balance of probabilities, that she does not has any disability.[/quote]
It's not either/or. People can be disabled and also anti-maskers. People can be disabled and also arseholes.

I've read a few strange comments recently that you can tell when people are taking the piss because The Truly Exempt™ are always polite and apologetic.

Disabled people have the same wide variety of personality traits and political opinions as everyone else. Why on earth wouldn't they?