Lisa Montgomery executed

[PegasusReturns]

Lisa Montgomery was executed yesterday - I don’t know how this amounts to justice in 2021. What an appalling tragedy her life and death was.

www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-55642177

I’d rather be put to death then spend life in any kind of prison, she stole a life viciously but it seems like her life was stolen before she was even born. I don’t agree with the death penalty and whilst think if Bobby Jo was my daughter and I’d want to hurt Lisa myself it would be a Pyrrhic victory. Why does society focus on disposing of a person like that rather than intervening when they should.

This is a really complex discussion because there are many facets

Do you agree in the death penalty in general.

What about for someone like Myra hyndley.
What about if it was your child she tortured and killed. Would you believe in it then?

What about for Lisa Montgomery. What if her victim was your daughter? Would you believe in the death penalty then?

Then there is the who or what was Lisa Montgomery. Did her abuse lead her to be a cold blooded murderer? Was she due lenience because of rhe abuse she suffered?

For me, if it was my child, I’d kill the murderer myself. I’d happily serve my time for it too. So when I say I’m against the death penalty to be honest, it’s when it’s someone else’s child. Not if it was mine, god forbid. So maybe I need to put myself in the victims families shoes. becauxe if i was them, id be thinking "do it and make it really hurt"

As for Lisa. She knew what she was doing. She knew how wrong it was. It was self serving, cold, premeditated. It was not a sudden act of aggression. thats what changes it. a sudden act of aggression, a mistake in a panic, a loss of control..that is very different to the cold months of planning, lying, manipulating, that she put in before she did it.

Is being a murderer nature or nurture? For me when its cold blooded premeditated, i think i believe its nature. because many many people have suffered worse, and for longer, and its rare they turn into what lisa was. very rare indeed.

@Bluntness100 excellent post and spot on in all of it.

The deterrent argument is a bit suspect given the US has a very high murder rate compared to countries with similar development and wealth.

@HerselfIndoors

The deterrent argument is a bit suspect given the US has a very high murder rate compared to countries with similar development and wealth.

I'd actually label it more "complete bollocks" and a fig leaf for people who feel dirty admitting that it's really pure and unmitigated revenge, coupled with a rather unpleasant bloodlust.

I wonder how many people here would have booked an execution express to that last 1868 hanging ? More than none I'd wager.

www.bl.uk/collection-items/letters-from-charles-dickens-on-capital-punishment-23-february---16-march-1846

@Bluntness100 just what I wanted to write and sums up my feelings exactly

@PrankedByLife

She deserved it - evil woman! She had enough mental balance to befriend a pregnant woman online, with the purpose of killing her for her baby. It's premeditated. If, a big IF she stabbed the pregnant woman in a street in a state of psychosis THEN maybe the death penalty may have been unfair.

Thing is @PrankedByLife, as @Mummyoflittledragon says, this doesn't help anyone - it was an incredibly heinous crime, but if as a society they (the USA) cannot look inside themselves and consider what could be done to protect other children from experiencing the horrendous crimes committed against them, as they were committed against Lisa Montgomery, then they have just swept everything that happened to that poor child under the carpet.

And, in my humble opinion, that is hugely disrespectful to the family of Bobby Jo - if the only deterrent to such heinous crimes is to wait until they have been committed and then kill the perpetrator, then no lives will be saved.

If capital punishment worked, then in all of the US states where it is applied, there would be no murders.

If the state/society took child abuse seriously and acted upon it consistently it would save many children experiencing what Lisa Montgomery went through.

Violence begets violence.

Excellent post at 18.43 Bluntness; even as opponent of capital punishment I'd probably feel the same, and I guess this points up why we don't allow victims' families to decide sentences

However in trusting the state to do it on our behalf, I believe we also have the right to expect those sentences to be appropriate - and as said, I'm convinced that support for the death sentences is partly driven by the perception that they're not

@cuddlymunchkin

Did you read what she did? The family of the victim should and we're listened to. She went out if her way to befriend the victim online - not a brief psychotic episode but a long, thought out campaign.

This. Consider how her daughter must feel given the tragic circumstances of her birth.

She was born into pure hell.

So was her victim's daughter.

@Floppywin

for those saying would posters have been feeling empathy towards a male etc., well yes back in 1995 there was a British/American man executed and it was bigger in the news at the time than this story has been.

I expect the same people disagreeing with the death penalty today would absolutely have felt the same way. No-one thought the murderer was a great guy, no-one wanted him released but to have a civilised country execute someone was shocking to see in real time as the appeals ran out.

That doesn't take away from any of the victims, no-one is supporting the murderer they are saying the death penalty is not part of a civilised society.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicholas_Ingram

On the one hand to say that murder is the most terrible crime, but on the other hand that society can decide collectively to ask one of its own to murder/execute on society's behalf is not ok and is not without consequences along the road and leads to extremism.

We either value life and don't commit murder or we think we can pick and choose who lives/dies. No-one thinks a murderer is equal to the victim's life, but we are not to turn ourselves into murderers to seek justice. We'd hand over state sanctioned murder at our peril, so wise to be careful what we wish for and the start of the road is to say: death penalty fine with me and not able to see further than the end of that sentence.

Absolutely this. x 1000

The American sanctity of life paradox. Funny how the people who are most pro-life are also the most pro-death penalty.

Also, a huge lack of understanding about psychosis on this thread. It's not just a sudden brief mania. It can, and does, present as a long term condition with the ability to plan, whilst being completely out of touch with reality, particularly if it manifests as the result of a long term mental health disorder (say perhaps as a result of chronic torture and abuse).

I'm deeply sorry for the victim's family, and the grief and pain they must still be experiencing. But I can't agree with the death penalty. No exceptions. It doesn't heal anything. It's revenge, not justice. .

What an awful tragic waste of two lives.
Those poor women.

There was no suggestion she was suffering from psychosis though. It was deemed by many doctors after Assessment she knew what she was doing. Her defense team was incapable of proving otherwise. And her actions would indicate rhe doctors who assessed her was correct. There is no way round it.

I don’t profess to know anything about psychosis. I don’t even trust the system particularly. But I can make a logical link between her actions and the doctors assessments. So I’m not going to start diagnosing her and trying to excuse it. Which is what “oh maybe it’s psychosis” is. It’s a way to try to justify what she did. A refusal to accept that a woman could cold heartedly do this to another woman and be fully aware of what she was doing.

I theoretically think the death penalty should never be applied. It’s horrific. To kill people like this. But as said. I know if it was my child she’d murdered, I’d want her to die slowly and hard. And I’d do it myself given the chance.

That young woman came round and tried to protect herself as Montgomery was performing the c section. She died knowing what was happening. That the woman she had befriended was killing her. And that her murderer was trying to take her unborn child. That’s horrific. She died knowing her murderer was taking her child.

And that murderer knew exactly what she was doing.

If that was mine, I’d kill her myself.

Even my russian friends have expressed shock she was put to death. Sickening. (not that russians are barbaric, but their government isnt shy when it comes to acting out)

I feel sometimes the act itself is enough to prove somebody is profoundly mentally damaged

This story is tragic all around

Her lawyers put forward that they believe she was psychotic at the time and detached form reality

There was no history of violence

I do believe she was very unwell, trauma from her childhood through to being an adult can have such an impact of how a person views the world, themselves their mental health is often very fragile

I know I would feel different it it was my child but I can’t put myself in that position and don’t (why would I too painful to even contemplate it)

She was born into pure hell

So was her victim's daughter

You know that thing where you sometimes see a whole situation summed up in a few words? I just did ...

@user1471565182

I feel sometimes the act itself is enough to prove somebody is profoundly mentally damaged

I agree with that. I believe any one who murders is profoundly mentally damaged,

However that’s very different to saying they don’t know what they are doing, don’t know right from wrong, and are not culpable.

@Arobase

Where do you get the idea that mental illness takes away the capacity to plan? It's utter nonsense.

@ScrambledSmegs

Also, a huge lack of understanding about psychosis on this thread. It's not just a sudden brief mania. It can, and does, present as a long term condition with the ability to plan, whilst being completely out of touch with reality, particularly if it manifests as the result of a long term mental health disorder (say perhaps as a result of chronic torture and abuse).

Yy. Some truly bizarre ideas about mental illness in this thread. That if you are psychotic you cannot plan, that if you have some learning disabilities you cannot be intelligent. (Tell that to dyslexics or intelligent people who have suffered a head injury - as Montgomery had).

Head injuries of themselves are linked to aggression violent behaviour in people who had no previous history of it - as well as changes in reasoning, memory and impulsiveness.

Psychosis is not just about sudden visual or auditory hallucinations - it can be long term delusional thinking, total lack of contact with reality, and fracturing of personality.

A seriously mentally ill person could plan some seriously deranged things.

Montgomery's plan of itself - to cut a baby out of someone and pass it off as hers - is an indicator that the planner was not well in the head - it's not a sane or sensible plan, one that is likely to work.

This quite apart from her actual mental state when she was carrying it out - which we don't know - despite the wild speculation in this thread presented as fact.

I suffer from psychosis due to my schizophrenia. I’ve never harmed anyone while in a psychotic state. I think it’s wrong to say that sane people don’t do such horrible acts. They do. Did you see the link I posted on the statistics about mental illness and violence? There is no causal link between being mentally ill and committing murder or violence. By saying that such an act proves she wasn’t sane you are othering the mentally ill and stigmatising us as murderers when there is no evidence, just prejudice.

Good point Plande. Im sick of a bad upbringing being used as an excuse for heinous crimes. Myra Hindley tried that one. Her sister said she had the same upbringing from abusive parents but didn't murder any children.