Why do americans fear anything that's slightly left wing, let alone socialist ?

[Schonerlebnis]

Admit it's a bit of a blanket statement but there seems to be this widespread fear of any kind of left wing policy. I'm on a non political facebook group (cooking related so as ordinary as you can get) which has many US members and was surprised by how many called obama care socialist
Even the Democrats are accused of being left leaning (correct me if I'm wrong but that's not even remotely accurate !) and I'm not sure that they even have unions anymore ? On a recent US election thread someone mentioned that people feared that changes to the benefits system to support the vulnerable would lead to a rise in taxes and so make them poorer..... Can any one explain why a country that claims to look after the persecuted and vulnerable has such odd views ?

@Toilenstripes but a poor woman from Liverpool could go to Oxbridge if she decided that what she was going to do. Could she go to Harvard?

But there is no safety net to let you dwell on any problems you have. Even when sick, you drag you butt out of bed and get to work.

I can’t believe people see this as a positive.

Actually I think there is some truth in the first statement. Not necessarily 'hard work' being the cure but dwelling on problems though.

I worked in mental health for years with people will various problems, and claiming benefits. Two cases were of interest. One man and one woman, both had had depression and anxiety for years, unable to work, claiming benefits. In both separate cases they inherited a substantial about of money, not rich, but enough to live off for at least ten years (one longer). Huge levels of stress were lifted. They were both free of both the benefits system, with constant assessments, form filling and fear that their support would be stopped if they got better or appeared better. They were also free from the pressure of work and desperation to earn money. Their health improved enormously, they both got very good advice with their money and worked out that of they didn't go mad the money would last years so they were still careful. After about a year both came off medication and one was discharged from support services. One of them even got a part time job in a shop before I'd left, knowing she didn't have to do the job and was free to walk out anytime made a huge difference to her ability to cope.

Now neither of those people were malingering or fake or playing the system (there were also people who were) just the pressure of life and supporting themselves was more than they could cope with. The benefit system didn't really help them because they needed to stay sick to get the financial support they needed. I don't really know how you could design a better system for people like this though (maybe universal basic income). But perhaps an easy to access, no pressure to work, benefits system wouldn't actually lead to dependency or laziness, it might easy mental health problems (by removing one big cause of stress) free people up to work without risk.

Don't know, just musing.

Very interesting thread

The other thing I never understand about America is the health care. Ok, I can see were people might argue that if you are an adult you should be responsible for paying for your own care. But children? Children getting less care because their parents are too poor to pay? Why extend free healthcare to the elderly (medicare) who use 90% of most countries healthcare anyway. The elderly would have had a lifetime to sort out healthcare for themselves. Children have zero responsibility.

news.gallup.com/opinion/polling-matters/243362/meaning-socialism-americans-today.aspx

I wonder this @Schonerlebnis, it's like a bad word to them. I hear the word socialist and I think there's a safety net for the old, sick, unemployed. It's a reassuring word. It seems to STRIKE TERROR in to the hearts of Americans. Really weird!

The notion that upward mobility is so much easier in America is something I'm not sure about. I think university is far less accessible in the USA. I'm a single parent in Ireland not in receipt of any benefits but working for a very very modest wage! and I will be able to send my dc1 to university. I'll have to contribute myself and apply for a grant, but I just don't know if that's possible in the USA? I hope I'm wrong.

[quote BecomeStronger]**@Toilenstripes* but a poor woman from Liverpool could* go to Oxbridge if she decided that what she was going to do. Could she go to Harvard?[/quote]
This is true. I think Harvard is about 6 times as ex

pensive!

The USA has a different history/experience of socialism than Europe, especially England and France where socialism/socialist ideas were founded.

Also a different history of trade unionism. In the USA trade unions were often corrupt and seen as untrustworthy. The trade union movement in the UK was more respected and played a large part in the foundation of the Labour party. The UK was the first country to industrialise and so has a much older tradition of industrial action. Russia was considered part of Europe and so what happened there during the revolution was better understood, sympathised with, by the working class.

Then there was the cold war. Europeans understood better the price the Soviets had paid during the war and so could understand the Soviet Union better.

I suppose being thousands of miles away from socialism, not understanding an industrial class struggle/system and its history, it was easier for European socialism to be misunderstood in the US. Especially I think Americans dont fully understand just how huge the industrial UK working class, especially in England, was and how powerful and influential a trade union, the NUM (coal) for example, could be

It is shocking how so many Americans don't want free healthcare. They're so focused on how that would mean paying for somebody else's healthcare, they'd rather pay a fortune in health insurance for their entire life than just know there's a system for everybody.

On the other hand, any American can work hard and change their life for the better, move up in the world.

This is the myth that keeps Americans in line. Fear of losing health insurance is what keeps them in jobs with almost no rights, and in most cases you won’t join a union if you want to keep your job.

People will take their right to own guns. I don't mind people owning guns but I think there should be a limit.

They also fear of being told not to raise their children at certain way

Or too much taxes and not enough spending freedom

Yes, some Americans don’t seem to realise that paying for health insurance means they already are paying for other people’s healthcare.

People have very different mindsets in the US. Just because English is their language doesn’t mean they are remotely like British people.

Americans tend to be insular which is why most of them don’t even have a passport.

They are as different as in China where you’d bring shame on your family if you did badly at school.

Basically why.

[quote BecomeStronger]**@Toilenstripes* but a poor woman from Liverpool could* go to Oxbridge if she decided that what she was going to do. Could she go to Harvard?[/quote]
She could certainly go to Harvard on scholarship, but if you’re implying that American universities are outrageously expensive then you’re right.

They're so focused on how that would mean paying for somebody else's healthcare, they'd rather pay a fortune in health insurance for their entire life than just know there's a system for everybody.

But they're paying for somebody else's healthcare through insurance.

They don't want to spend on healthcare because it means they have to lose their hard earned money to someone else's irresponsibility. Drinking, smoking, eating, having sex and getting pregnant.

Americans do not necessarily value anything that benefits the Greater Good. It tends to favour more "I'm alright, Jack" lines of thinking. Country, flag, ideals above welfare of people

@SinkGirl

On the other hand, any American can work hard and change their life for the better, move up in the world.

This is the myth that keeps Americans in line. Fear of losing health insurance is what keeps them in jobs with almost no rights, and in most cases you won’t join a union if you want to keep your job.

It’s not a myth though. My grandparents were poor farmers. My life has turned out so very different. It’s not a universal experience but it’s possible. More so than in Britain. Oddly though, I think life in the U.K. is better.

Toilenstripes Sat 07-Nov-20 11:09:20

There are good things about AS just for the context of this discussion and how strange the country is - I mentioned what I mentioned.

Snobbery is very, very much alive in the US and threads it way through society .

• I imagine more poor girls could access OXBRIGDE through Grammar schools back when they were everywhere, and now they are trying to redress the balance by actively recruiting from comprehensives. Obviously the ladder to Oxbridge for bright poor children was mercilessly Kicked away and not replaced with anything else, leaving millions of bright students failed or floundering...

@OwlOne

It is shocking how so many Americans don't want free healthcare. They're so focused on how that would mean paying for somebody else's healthcare, they'd rather pay a fortune in health insurance for their entire life than just know there's a system for everybody.

I have no first hand experience but I have always been struck by depictions of American healthcare in books/films by how fast it is compared to the NHS. E.g. being referred to a specialist and seeing them within a week, and then being scheduled for an operation within another couple of weeks.

Whereas, on the NHS, unless you are on the point of dying or cancer needs to be ruled out, 'referral to a specialist' usually means joining a waiting list several months long, and if you need surgery, you then join another waiting list that's even longer. So you can wait literally years for diagnosis and treatment, even if your condition is debilitating.

I'm not trying to suggest we should adopt a US-style system but we need to be wary of holding the NHS up as if it were a model way of doing things.

@ivykaty44

Interesting there road system is free to use at source for everyone driving, which is a very socialist policy But they don’t ever complain about it I find this bizarre

Many of their major cross state and interstate motorways are toll roads, not free.