Why do americans fear anything that's slightly left wing, let alone socialist ?

[Schonerlebnis]

Admit it's a bit of a blanket statement but there seems to be this widespread fear of any kind of left wing policy. I'm on a non political facebook group (cooking related so as ordinary as you can get) which has many US members and was surprised by how many called obama care socialist
Even the Democrats are accused of being left leaning (correct me if I'm wrong but that's not even remotely accurate !) and I'm not sure that they even have unions anymore ? On a recent US election thread someone mentioned that people feared that changes to the benefits system to support the vulnerable would lead to a rise in taxes and so make them poorer..... Can any one explain why a country that claims to look after the persecuted and vulnerable has such odd views ?

We used to host American students, they were really religious, shocked we didn't say a prayer when eating etc. Very strong with views.... Very pious seeming.

However, no compunctions about having guns, they were shocked when we said the UK find the gun culture alarming... Wow they didn't like that '' but its our right to bear arms... ''

Also they were scathing about helping others who hadn't paid for health care, with health care!! Seething!! No way!!

I found the two views so unbelievably strange!! But they clearly thought they were kind.. Nice.. Good, god fearing folk!!

@GalesThisMorning

Also in my home state the minimum wage is $15 an hour!!!

So about £11 ph which is less than a babysitter earns

Ten years ago the minimum wage in USA was £7.25 which is about £5.50 so how would you pay the rent without benefits?

Britons are not spoiled...

These rights and safety nets have been born of horrors in the past that social reformers wanted to stamp out.
We have been leading light in the world on social reform, cotton Mills children working, writers like Charles Kingsley (water babies, chimney sweeps), Charles Dickens etc highlighting social plight, William Blake...

Many people came together over the centuries and put these measures into place to be a society we want to live in.

The UK did most of these themselves and healthy interactions with writers etc from the rest of the world... Our amazing parliament.. Has enabled all of this.

We can still choose what we want and need from legislation from anywhere else just as we have always done... Hundreds of years before the eu state was conceived

My DS has moved to the US and has lived there the last ten years. Her explanation on it is that the belief system is very much that you make your own wealth and you are responsible for yourself. The 'American dream' is that you can get success through hard work and prosperity you won't be paid for by anyone else. My DS also holds these values so the system very much suits her. She has done extremely well there. But from what she has told me you are ok there when you are rich but being poor in America is impossible, you are left and no-one really cares. I feel it really jarrs against the great, generous and unified nation they like to talk about.

I don't feel America is this amazing society at all, I think there are so many flaws, they are still quite a rough and ready new country... You don't have to scratch far below the surface to see that esp with the gun issues, the inherent racism.. The effects of slavery still apparent, the barbaric maternity rules there, utterly barbaric!!

Lack of holidays.....

They still have a long way to go to become more civilised.

My brother moved there in his 20s.
He is now unemployed with poor health. He is screwed.

@happinessischocolate there are benefits as well, we call it welfare and it is stigmatized and difficult to access. But it does exist. I dont know the stats but I would bet money on homelessness levels being higher in the US than the UK.

Life is easier here.

I think "we" have a very odd idea of what life is like in America. Almost all film and TV is based around the lives of the weathly people around the edges. The bit in the middle and the poor elsewhere get no coverage at all. Even where people "should" be poor they don't live the real life of anyone who really is poor in America. Rachel from friends anyone? Loft living in NYC on a waitress' wage?

What seems to happen, in the same way that were seeing more here, is that the poor believe that they too will benefit from policies designed to increase opportunity for the rich to become richer.

@ivykaty44

My point is that if you are able bodied you are expected to work full time.

Universal credit Expects claimants to be working full time unless children under certain age

JSA for many is paid from National insurance payments - so an insurance policy

This touches on another observation I’ve made which is that many British mums stay at home with their young children (as they have the right to do), but then when they split from their partners or husbands they have no income. So, on the one hand the state makes it possible to stay at home with young children but many times that choice creates a vulnerable scenario for the mum because she’s been out of work for however many years.

What shocked and confused me was how accepting citizens are in the lack of investments in local services such as the police, schools, roads, fire services and health. She lived in California and their tax is incredibly low. So to my mind the rich are ok as they use the private schools, have private insurance but the poor have no health insurance and schools with are extremely low standard. But what is shocking is that they seem to accept this on both sides. The rich don't feel they should be taxed a bit more for these things and the poor accept this. I find that incredible. It's not a place I would want to live. The values are all skewed IMO.

[quote GalesThisMorning]@happinessischocolate there are benefits as well, we call it welfare and it is stigmatized and difficult to access. But it does exist. I dont know the stats but I would bet money on homelessness levels being higher in the US than the UK.

Life is easier here.[/quote]
It is indeed! My stress levels have eased up significantly since moving to England. It’s a lovely place to live.

The American Dream refers to the idea that if you work hard you can achieve success.
Originally, this was in massive contrast to many? All? Other countries where your life chances were explicitly tied to your birth station. For example, a Russian serf would live and die a serf, bylaws, nomatter how hard he worked. There was no legal impediment against caste or creed (once they got rid of slavery)

It's a noble idea, and a worthy aspiration. It was massive according to the standards of the time. Still works today,though obviously there are no guarantees. And there are barriers in peoples way, mostly down to class issues imo, which Americans don't seem to recognize all that much.

[quote GalesThisMorning]@happinessischocolate there are benefits as well, we call it welfare and it is stigmatized and difficult to access. But it does exist. I dont know the stats but I would bet money on homelessness levels being higher in the US than the UK.

Life is easier here.[/quote]
Gales, you specifically said:
I had a period of being a single mother on a low income in the UK, and then I lost my job. I found a minimum wage job working in a chip shop because that was what I knew to do - get any job you can so your kids can eat.
*
A lot of my friends found it amusing because I didn't have to do it. I would have been no worse off claiming benefits. Friends, and even the Job Centre advisor, told me I should take time to think about what I really wanted to do. That would never happen in the US and it would be seen as proof of the destructive nature of socialism on the individual. Tbh I'm not sure that would still happen in Britain today, times are changing. This was 10 years ago.*

This is bollox you did not survive as a single parent in the UK on a minimum wage job at a chippy with no benefits.

I've been a single parent for 17 years and even in the very generous period when Gordon Brown was in charge I've always been better off working. No work coach at the job centre would ever encourage you not to work!! Even when working part time I was £40 a week better off working with top up benefits.

Bold failure so I'll try again
@GalesThisMorning you specifically said:
I had a period of being a single mother on a low income in the UK, and then I lost my job. I found a minimum wage job working in a chip shop because that was what I knew to do - get any job you can so your kids can eat.
*
A lot of my friends found it amusing because I didn't have to do it. I would have been no worse off claiming benefits. Friends, and even the Job Centre advisor, told me I should take time to think about what I really wanted to do. That would never happen in the US and it would be seen as proof of the destructive nature of socialism on the individual. Tbh I'm not sure that would still happen in Britain today, times are changing. This was 10 years ago.**

This is bollox you did not survive as a single parent in the UK on a minimum wage job at a chippy with no benefits.

I've been a single parent for 17 years and even in the very generous period when Gordon Brown was in charge I've always been better off working. No work coach at the job centre would ever encourage you not to work!! Even when working part time I was £40 a week better off working with top up benefits.

Hi @happinessischocolate I didn't mean to upset you. Life is hard as a single parent wherever you are. I've been there, I know.

I wasn't implying that single parents are workshy or lazy or anything of the sort. Simply that in the UK there is a safety net that doesn't exist in the US, and culturally is is more acceptable to have government support, which Americans tend to see as handouts.

I fear I am in danger of becoming the Republican voice on this thread which I am firmly not!!! I really support the British welfare system and find it much fairer and more conducive to a functioning society.

My only real point is that it is at odds to the American viewpoint.

I find it very hypocritical when they talk of their great nation and their community spirit and how unified and generous they are. They aren't at all. From what I have heard from my DS and from visiting the country, it is very each for their own. I can't understand how the poor don't make more fuss about it, how they continue to vote for trump is such large numbers. They are scared of Biden taking away what they see as their freedom rather than the possibility that he might actually make policies that help the poor.

You are totally right about the health care too. My DS said that much of the Obama Care legislation was not able to get through. Yoinked would have thought this would have been a prime opportunity to finally make some of the changes so many allude to.

Really interesting comments!

But there is no safety net to let you dwell on any problems you have. Even when sick, you drag you butt out of bed and get to work.

I can’t believe people see this as a positive.

Perhaps there are a few people who would benefit from this. But what about the others, where getting up and getting on with it physically isn’t possible? Bankruptcy, homelessness etc. Brilliant.

What about people like my twins, who were born with a disability that means they may never be able to work, maybe never even talk or learn to communicate. What would their lives be?

Interesting thread.

Do I understand correctly that Americans don't get paid maternity leave? Is it covered by health insurance instead?

The comment about Hispanic people fleeing corrupt failed regimes probably explains why they voted trump ?

Cold war propaganda

@witchesSpelleas

No. If you're very "lucky" with a good stable job you've been in for a long time, you can sometimes cobble together maybe 4 to 6weeks using accrued PTO/ sick leave etc and call it maternity leave.

It's very common to be straight back in after a week or two. Still sore, still bleeding and having had to leave your newborn in daycare. Any longer and there's a real risk of not having a job to go back to, and you NEED the associated heath insurance for you and your kid.

That sounds awful, Hettie .

Money - it's all about money. DH knows a couple of Trump voters through work. One voted Trump as he is selling his business (worth millions) in the next few years and under the Republicans the tax to pay would be less than 50% of the taxes the Democrats are likely to impose.

@NullcovoidNovember

I don't feel America is this amazing society at all, I think there are so many flaws, they are still quite a rough and ready new country... You don't have to scratch far below the surface to see that esp with the gun issues, the inherent racism.. The effects of slavery still apparent, the barbaric maternity rules there, utterly barbaric!!

Lack of holidays.....

They still have a long way to go to become more civilised.

On the other hand, any American can work hard and change their life for the better, move up in the world. In Britain you are catalogued the moment you open your mouth. A young woman from a Liverpool comprehensive probably won’t even try to get into Oxford and if she did she’d feel like an outsider because her accent is like a label stuck to her forehead. Brits are good at Othering each other.