Why do americans fear anything that's slightly left wing, let alone socialist ?

[Schonerlebnis]

Admit it's a bit of a blanket statement but there seems to be this widespread fear of any kind of left wing policy. I'm on a non political facebook group (cooking related so as ordinary as you can get) which has many US members and was surprised by how many called obama care socialist
Even the Democrats are accused of being left leaning (correct me if I'm wrong but that's not even remotely accurate !) and I'm not sure that they even have unions anymore ? On a recent US election thread someone mentioned that people feared that changes to the benefits system to support the vulnerable would lead to a rise in taxes and so make them poorer..... Can any one explain why a country that claims to look after the persecuted and vulnerable has such odd views ?

It’s cultural - as has been mentioned, the founding people of the US had experience of being oppressed by the State/Government/Ruling power.

That’s why the cultural bias is that they don’t want to hand over more power/money than necessary from themselves (as individuals) to the State.

It doesn’t make them more or less selfish. As pp point out, philanthropy is a huge thing in the US and many people pay 10% of their wages to Churches or similar. It’s just a political approach to how they want to manage power.

I'm American but live in the UK and I found it hard to get my head around how much you can "get for free" when I first moved here.

The American ethos is very rooted in self sufficiency. It is aspirational, but not achievable for most people. But it's in the grain of American literature, history, culture etc. Etc... look after yourself. That also extends to community and neighbourhood.

What Americans find hard to swallow is the idea of supporting people who don't work hard in return. The idea of hard work is a very important part of American culture, and not working hard can't be rewarded.

It always surprises me how much money churches on tv in states make from donations
But in U.K. just a few coppers seems to get put in the collection bowl

But U.K. will give to tv appeal for children in need

It’s culturally very different

Free school meals were first available in some areas in UK in when compulsory education was introduced in the 1870s. Criteria by which children were entitled to a free meal were set in 1921 although not everywhere offered them. They became compulsory in law in with the Education Act in 1944, under a coalition government, along with free milk and we know what happened to that

@ivykaty44

Doyouknowwhat I was referring to the free school meals for reception and year 1 that are for every child and not means tested, it was brought in in 2014 by Nick Clegg

Don't tell Nick Clegg he's Conservative

If he gets into bed with them....

The right to bear arms is also an individualist mindset. The right to defend property. It goes back to a time where there was no effective law control.

I grew up in America, and there is fear of Communism left over from the Cold War with Russia. Communism is seen as evil and morally bankrupt. And socialism is seen as a gateway to communism. I used to think I was very liberal, voted democrat, but then I moved to England and realised I needed a whole new education on being liberal in a welfare state. There are things I absolutely love, like the NHS and the protections of employment law, but generally I find many people (at least on mumsnet) extremely vulnerable, prone to depression, and making life choices that create even more vulnerability. Both of my next door neighbors are in their 50s, haven’t worked full-time in over 10 years, live in council houses and just sort of potter around. Apparently they both have depression, so I think they receive benefits and one of them is a huge Tory. As an American I don’t really understand that. There’s lots more but that’s the gist. I hope I haven’t offended anyone.

I agree with PPs regarding their attitude to work. Also, I get the impression America ia a very expensive country to live in, so people are worried about losing money to tax and being poorer themselves (esp in order to fund those who aren't working) - perhaps without realising they'd also benefit from the increased services higher tax would provide.

@ivykaty44

If he gets into bed with them....

Well yes, doing that is certainly what destroyed any chances of their getting near power again but the UIFSM were definitely not introduced by Tories (as you said originally) they were a concession they had to make to have power.

I find many people (at least on mumsnet) extremely vulnerable, prone to depression, and making life choices that create even more vulnerability.

You’ll have people that are the same in the states, so what happens to them?

Interesting thread.

BecomeStronger And as I said to Jess in the following post I was incorrect In my timings on that one

Also, with the gun culture in the U.S., the National Rifle Association has spent 10s of millions over the past 30 years getting into bed with Senators. They have an enormous lobbying mechanism on Capital Hill and they are Rich. If you look at the U.S. in the 80s, no one had a gun except if you lived rurally you might have a shotgun for “critters.” 😬 The NRA has been hugely successful in spreading their agenda to the masses, and then 9/11 happened which had a profound psychological impact on Americans.

If you look at the history of the USA vs UK or other European countries, it's only been around for a few hundred years (the non indigenous society). Founded on all that pioneering and grit and The American Dream.

@ivykaty44

I find many people (at least on mumsnet) extremely vulnerable, prone to depression, and making life choices that create even more vulnerability.

You’ll have people that are the same in the states, so what happens to them?

They become homeless and/or reliant on charity I suspect? Though I think in some states you can get some level of sickness benefits (I could be wrong).

As fellow American I find it astonishing how 'spoiled' the Brits are by having so many services, welfare safety net, health care, automatic right to holidays & redundancy payments, etc. I'm not saying that's wrong, just that the Brits have a completely different relationship with their govt than Americans do. Brits love standards & regulations: Americans see lots of regulation as ridiculous interference.

@ivykaty44

I find many people (at least on mumsnet) extremely vulnerable, prone to depression, and making life choices that create even more vulnerability.

You’ll have people that are the same in the states, so what happens to them?

There is welfare for extreme cases and there are unemployment benefits that are paid if you get sacked. I got sacked once and received unemployment payments for 9 months while I was job hunting. There used to be “food stamps “ but I’m not sure if they still exist. But generally, in the past at least, I wasn’t aware of that many vulnerable people. Other than people with disabilities. My point is that if you are able bodied you are expected to work full time.

@justanotherneighinparadise

The right to bear arms is also an individualist mindset. The right to defend property. It goes back to a time where there was no effective law control.

I’m not sure that is right—about the right to bear arms coming from no law control. Obviously, in a practical sense, the westward spread across the country needed guns as there was much lawlessness, but the founding settlements in the east were founded on utopian ideals where there were laws to enable a community to live together. The right to bear arms is more fundamental than a practical necessity - relating to the liberty of the individual against the oppression of the state/ruler/monarchy.

@Toilenstripes I recognise a lot of what you say. At the risk of sounding like a Republican (which I'm not!!!) I struggled to see how JSA etc benefited healthy young people. My mindset has changed in the nearly 20 years I've lived in the UK, and the UK's benefits system has changed as well. But I was shocked at how easy it was for people not to live a fairly 'normal' life without needing to work.

@JoeBidenIsGreat

As fellow American I find it astonishing how 'spoiled' the Brits are by having so many services, welfare safety net, health care, automatic right to holidays & redundancy payments, etc. I'm not saying that's wrong, just that the Brits have a completely different relationship with their govt than Americans do. Brits love standards & regulations: Americans see lots of regulation as ridiculous interference.

And that's how we ended up with Brexit. Many people are about to find out how much those annoying regulations protected them.

In the US a lot of emphasis is placed on self-reliance and personal responsibility. There’s a lot of positivity in that. And I agree that it has mental health benefits (and drawbacks).

And it isn’t just historical. For lots of people arriving in the US right now, they have very real personal experience of left wing states. The former East European countries, Cuba, Venezuela etc. All promised a left wing dream. But immigrants from those countries desperately want to leave those experiences behind them.

Ignorance

@JoeBidenIsGreat

As fellow American I find it astonishing how 'spoiled' the Brits are by having so many services, welfare safety net, health care, automatic right to holidays & redundancy payments, etc. I'm not saying that's wrong, just that the Brits have a completely different relationship with their govt than Americans do. Brits love standards & regulations: Americans see lots of regulation as ridiculous interference.

In America you don’t go on holiday because you might not have a job to come back to! I’m only half joking. But hearing a British person complain about not having had a holiday.... I always think, are you kidding me?

The scary thing is that the American government spends significantly more per capita on healthcare than we do, because they have to fund Medicare for those who qualify, within a very expensive private system.

Obama did the only thing that could be done - make insurance more accessible - without upending the entire system. I don’t know what the solution is for them.