Soft play situation - who is in the right?

[GlummyMcGlummerson]

Two mums meet at soft play with their 8yo girls - MumA & ChildA, and MumB & ChildB.

The slot is 2.5 hours, and after 2 hours ChildA comes to the adults crying because ChildB isn't playing with her anymore. ChildB approaches the table and MumA says "ChildA is upset because she says you won't play with her." ChildB responds "Yes I just want to play on my own for a bit". MumA says it's not nice to ditch your friend. MumB says that ChildB often gets tired of company and likes to do her own thing sometimes, and she's been taught to speak up if she ever feels like having alone time.

ChildA spends the rest of the session crying while ChildB goes to play on her own. ChildA says to her at the end that she isn't a good friend, which upsets ChildB.

Who was in the right, and should either mum have done anything differently?

It is usually quite easy to tell the difference between the obnoxious naughty bullies and the sad little souls who try their best to be friendly and want to fit in but just end up getting it a bit wrong every time.

@SnuggyBuggy

I agree you can't force people to include someone they don't get on with. It's not a real friendship if it's under duress. If a child has social difficulties then they need a competent adult to help them work through these and learn strategies. It shouldn't be their peers responsibility to socialise them

Exactly.

It breaks my heart that at 14 some kids have not fitted in to a group yet and I always work with them to help their confidence, steer them towards their interests where they'll naturally make friends ("why not try chess/science/drama club" as you enjoy that, and the like). But pointing to another child and saying "there, they'll probably include you" and force the friendship is something I'd never do, it's not fair to anyone and it's not a solution in the long run. In fact it would just create greater disparity between the lonely child and their peers. So I'm amazed small children are expected to put up with this.

@GlummyMcGlummerson - so, your child did not want to go home, she was enjoying the soft play area, she just didn’t want to play with child A anymore. Why on earth do you therefore refuse to acknowledge that this is exactly like you saying to adult A that you didn’t want to talk to them anymore, but did want to stay, because it was not the venue you had a problem with, just the company, so were now taking yourself off to another table to have a cup of tea in peace and play on your phone?

@TweeBree

What if it was her birthday party? Could she tell everyone to go home halfway through because she 'needed space'?

I actually did this at my 21st and my wedding. Still have friends. Good ones who understand me as well as I understand them and their needs.

[quote MessAllOver]@Faultymain5. So you think all children excluded by their peers are bullies and have themselves to blame?[/quote]
It's also not always the case that the excluded child is being picked on or is bit different. The school I work in is a 3-18 school and I know from discussions with my primary colleagues that often a parent will storm in raging about how their child is being excluded by everybody and it's because of their hair colour/their shoes/that they're short. When in fact it's because little Timmy spends break time going around screaming in all the children's face, or he pushes them around, or he makes rude comments, or expects only to play his game and huffs off if they won't

Neither child was in the right or the wrong. They are 8. 8 year olds have tiffs. The mum’s should have given each a sneaky eye roll and a wry smile and not made a thread a big deal about such a non event.

So I'm amazed small children are expected to put up with this.

I’m amazed you expect a child to accept behaviour from your daughter that you wouldn’t accept yourself. If you would have expected your daughter to negotiate with you and recognise your feelings, why would you not expect her to do the same with her friend?

@Faultymain5 I agree that dealing with teenagers is somewhat different to dealing with littlies- I deal with both age groups at my school (which is a very small international one so rather different from the large U.K. school dynamic) BUT I think teenagers can be a equally vulnerable to exclusion. The “creepy” teenage boy is a case in point. He may well be trying to find some friends he can feel comfortable with (especially if he’s not into the same things as the other boys), but doesn’t know how to go about it. I wouldn’t force the girls to feel uncomfortable and accept him but I would definitely try to help him find “his people”.

@MessAllOver

It is usually quite easy to tell the difference between the obnoxious naughty bullies and the sad little souls who try their best to be friendly and want to fit in but just end up getting it a bit wrong every time.

Clearly not as my tale of my DD being made to associate with her tormentor both in a class and outside of class setting is not unfamiliar.

This child had issues, but her issues were not over and above my DD’s wellbeing. As I patiently explained to the school. What about parents who don’t know how to advocate for their child.

@Jellycatspyjamas

So I'm amazed small children are expected to put up with this.

I’m amazed you expect a child to accept behaviour from your daughter that you wouldn’t accept yourself. If you would have expected your daughter to negotiate with you and recognise your feelings, why would you not expect her to do the same with her friend?

I would expect my DD to leave someone alone who wanted to be left alone.

[quote Whynotnowbaby]@Faultymain5 I agree that dealing with teenagers is somewhat different to dealing with littlies- I deal with both age groups at my school (which is a very small international one so rather different from the large U.K. school dynamic) BUT I think teenagers can be a equally vulnerable to exclusion. The “creepy” teenage boy is a case in point. He may well be trying to find some friends he can feel comfortable with (especially if he’s not into the same things as the other boys), but doesn’t know how to go about it. I wouldn’t force the girls to feel uncomfortable and accept him but I would definitely try to help him find “his people”.[/quote]
YY and I'm not saying write the creepy boy off, but don't expect the girls to include someone they're uncomfortable with. There's a solution somewhere in between (hopefully)

Mum A should have said “we’ve only got another 30 minutes and B came to play with you. Be kind for another 30 minutes and you can have some time on your own at home.”

No need to ride roughshod of child’s need for solitude and no need to let her be rude and mean either.

I would expect my DD to leave someone alone who wanted to be left alone.

You would also expect her to negotiate with you to have the time you wanted with your friend, even if she wanted to leave, but you wouldn’t expect her to negotiate with her friend when they were out together.

You’re completely ignoring the fact that as her parent you expect her to accommodate your needs and feelings but don’t extend the same expectation to her friends. If you’d expect her to give you 10 minutes, I’d expect her to negotiate with her friend in the same way.

I see you are a secondary school teacher. You absolutely cannot apply the way teen circles and primary aged school circles work. Primary, which I said earlier, is all about inclusion of all children. No one left out. Your dd left child A out. By wanting to stay inside the soft play area alone, your dd effectively told child A to go away and play in another section of the play equipment or not to follow her. Of course Child A was really upset. This is why people are advising you that the way the situation was handled was not good and will only create issues for your dd as she gets older.

@Faultymain5. Allowing children to be excluded is never the answer. Yes, it would clearly have been easier for you and your child had that child simply ceased to exist or been run over by a bus. But they exist and the school has to balance the needs of both children. They clearly dealt with it badly from your perspective and, for the record, I don't think forcing a bullied child to play with the 'bully' is ever the right answer. But that doesn't mean the answer is simply to let a potentially vulnerable child with behavioural issues be excluded. They need more adult help to socially interact in an acceptable way with their peers, not to be cut off from them altogether.

I think the mother of child A was being unreasonable. I've seen a few people comparing it to adults and saying if we were out with a friend and they suddenly decided they didn't want to talk to us anymore it'd be rude.

Firstly, if ever I'm out with a friend and they're feeling tired or down or whatever, I'd absolutely hope that they felt they could tell me they needed to go home.

Secondly, adults generally choose their social interactions and the amount of time they spend there. These children didn't choose to go to the soft play centre together - they were taken by their mothers. This is fine of course if they both enjoy soft play, but the point is, they're not being rude by saying they've had enough. Child B wasn't 'ditching her friend', because it wasn't their choice to play together, their parents simply placed them together and expected them to play. Child B hadn't knocked on the door of Child A and said come and play with me, and THEN ditched her.

But I can also see that it might have been upsetting for Child A if she was happily playing and then she was left to play alone in an environment where she would usually be social. I'm sure if she was at home she would have plenty of toys/books/whatever to entertain herself with.

Basically I think it's a bit of a difficult situation, and neither was in the right or wrong .. though I will admit that I wouldn't have stayed once then 8yo started crying relentlessly, not even for the sake of younger siblings.

[quote Walkaround]**@GlummyMcGlummerson* - so, your child did not want to go home, she was enjoying the soft play area, she just didn’t want to play with child A anymore. Why on earth do you therefore refuse to acknowledge that this is exactly* like you saying to adult A that you didn’t want to talk to them anymore, but did want to stay, because it was not the venue you had a problem with, just the company, so were now taking yourself off to another table to have a cup of tea in peace and play on your phone? [/quote]
Because it's quite normal for children to play with other children / alone at soft play, but not too go out with your friend and sit on your own table. If you getting a bit worn down by the charter, it's also possible as an adult to go get a coffee, answer in a way that forestalls conversation for a while etc which 8 year olds are less skilled at.

When I met my friend and their kids for a play date we adults instigated, I don't expect the children to have to be joined at the hip for the whole time.

Parent A shouldn't have made child B feel bad, they should have used it as an opportunity to say it's ok to want your own space, go play with your brother, sit here nicely with us and if they genuinely sat there for 30 minutes crying they should have taken them home sooner.
Parent B could have explained at child A that someone B gets tired and needs some time out and then made an effort to talk to them whilst they were sat there

Firstly, if ever I'm out with a friend and they're feeling tired or down or whatever, I'd absolutely hope that they felt they could tell me they needed to go home.

I guess though it’s not the same as saying they needed to go joke, it equivalent to them saying they want you to sit somewhere else away from them, which would be hurtful however you look at it.

I agree the children didn’t choose to be with each other and the parents need to accept responsibility for that and the situation that followed. I’d have taken both child home not least because if the sim was for me to have coffee with a friend, that wouldn’t be happening anyway with unhappy children there.

I think the OP was fair enough until she said she’d expect her child to consider her own feelings, but didn’t expect her to show the other child the same courtesy.

@Mummyoflittledragon

I see you are a secondary school teacher. You absolutely cannot apply the way teen circles and primary aged school circles work. Primary, which I said earlier, is all about inclusion of all children. No one left out. Your dd left child A out. By wanting to stay inside the soft play area alone, your dd effectively told child A to go away and play in another section of the play equipment or not to follow her. Of course Child A was really upset. This is why people are advising you that the way the situation was handled was not good and will only create issues for your dd as she gets older.

I can see your point of child A was excluding child B so she could play with another child, but she was by herself!

I'm Team B. For an introverted child, there is often a point where they just can't socialise any more. I have an introverted work colleague like this - she gets to a certain point where she just cannot take any more information on board or talk any longer. Like, she just can't do it. She needs to go off by herself and she comes back refreshed. She's one of the kindest, most compassionate people I know, and an excellent friend; she will carry on a chat for a good while after she feels she needs a break, but she reaches a point where she just can't. I have several friends who are similar. It's really not uncommon.

Child B may well have been struggling for half an hour or more before deciding she couldn't take any more friend time, we don't know. It's entirely possible she had already spent that half an hour still playing because she didn't want to upset her friend. Let's not wade in and call her selfish.

OP, I think it would be sensible to have a word with her about how she phrases it when she needs a break, and limit play dates a bit if you find that she's flagging half way through.

Equally, Mum A needs to explain to Child A that it's ok for people to need breathing space sometimes and it's not a personal rejection.

I think Child A was very rude to say that Child B wasn't a good friend. Mum A should have suggested that Child A play alone or with a younger sibling for a while. People are saying that B needs to be kind, but so does A!

@SleepingStandingUp - clearly child A does not think it remotely normal to be told her friend wants to carry on playing, but not with her. You may think that is normal behaviour in a soft play area, that does not make it “normal.“ I have already said I think both children are self-centred (they are both only 8, so frankly these sorts of misunderstandings are unsurprising, as the children are both still learning the full effect their behaviour can have on others), but I also think the OP appears to need pointing out to her how her own child clearly came across to child A! Child B may not have been a bad casual playmate they happened to bump into in a soft play area, but she wasn’t being a brilliant friend to just wander off as though child A was a random child she’d met up with.

@Blurp

I'm Team B. For an introverted child, there is often a point where they just can't socialise any more. I have an introverted work colleague like this - she gets to a certain point where she just cannot take any more information on board or talk any longer. Like, she just can't do it. She needs to go off by herself and she comes back refreshed. She's one of the kindest, most compassionate people I know, and an excellent friend; she will carry on a chat for a good while after she feels she needs a break, but she reaches a point where she just can't. I have several friends who are similar. It's really not uncommon.

Child B may well have been struggling for half an hour or more before deciding she couldn't take any more friend time, we don't know. It's entirely possible she had already spent that half an hour still playing because she didn't want to upset her friend. Let's not wade in and call her selfish.

OP, I think it would be sensible to have a word with her about how she phrases it when she needs a break, and limit play dates a bit if you find that she's flagging half way through.

Equally, Mum A needs to explain to Child A that it's ok for people to need breathing space sometimes and it's not a personal rejection.

I think Child A was very rude to say that Child B wasn't a good friend. Mum A should have suggested that Child A play alone or with a younger sibling for a while. People are saying that B needs to be kind, but so does A!

This is just nonsense. Equate it to the adult world

You go out to dinner with a friend, after thr starter you decide you’ve had enough socialising so decide to eat your meal at a seperate table alone. And leave your friend with no one to eat with, at the table opposite.. You simply don’t do this. It’s rude and it’s socially unacceptable. And this is basically what happened here. The child decided to continue playing just didn’t wish to do it with her friend.

If child b no longer wished to play any more then they should have cut the play date short and left. Not went off and played on her own snd ignored her friend. And if the op knows her daughter struggles then she should either not have play dates or have shorter ones.

You simply cannot teach a child this is acceptable behaviour on how to treat people.

It’s fine to make up a white lie and say hey I’m not feeling great and leave if you don’t do it often. It is simply unacceptable to agree to do something with someone and then ditch them, tell them to their face you wish to continue to do the activity but they can fuck off, and then do it right in front of them leaving them standing watching. And then to ignore them crying whilst you crack on

Anyone teaching their child it’s cool to treat people like this is very wrong and is doing their child no favours. Being an introvert does not mean you can treat people badly.

It’s one thing to respect your boundaries but you need to also respect other people.

[quote MessAllOver]@Faultymain5. Allowing children to be excluded is never the answer. Yes, it would clearly have been easier for you and your child had that child simply ceased to exist or been run over by a bus. But they exist and the school has to balance the needs of both children. They clearly dealt with it badly from your perspective and, for the record, I don't think forcing a bullied child to play with the 'bully' is ever the right answer. But that doesn't mean the answer is simply to let a potentially vulnerable child with behavioural issues be excluded. They need more adult help to socially interact in an acceptable way with their peers, not to be cut off from them altogether.[/quote]
If they alienate a fair amount why is they’re learning curve at the detriment to everyone else though? And forcing a situation doesn’t work because it’s not authentic. One thing children sniff out is inauthenticity.

A child will find their tribe it just wont necessarily be in the first year of secondary, primary, college etc.

You go out to dinner with a friend, after thr starter you decide you’ve had enough socialising so decide to eat your meal at a seperate table alone. And leave your friend with no one to eat with, at the table opposite.. You simply don’t do this. It’s rude and it’s socially unacceptable. And this is basically what happened here. The child decided to continue playing just didn’t wish to do it with her friend.

As an adult, I have enough self-awareness to know ahead of time whether I'm going to have the mental energy for dinner or not. An 8-year-old doesn't have that awareness.

Secondly, if I was out with a friend and suddenly couldn't manage any more, I would explain that and go home. A friend would understand. In this case the DD didn't have the option of going home, obviously.

We've had team days where my colleague that I mentioned has needed to have her own space for a while - it's never a problem.

If I was out with a friend and she needed to go off on her own, that would be fine too. She's my friend, why would I want to invade her space and make her uncomfortable?

Why didn’t she have the option of going home? Exactly why couldn’t her mother have taken her home?