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Original poster

Did anyone hear the woman defending Charlie Hebdo on R4 Today?

973 replies

Icantthinkofabettername · 17/10/2020 08:57

I read about the awful attack on the teacher in France last night. It is just horrific an no one should face that risk.

However, the spokesperson on the Today programme was spectacularly missing the point. She was defending freedom of speech and advocating children being taught about satire.

In my view, there is nothing groundbreaking about using satire to perpetuate the prevailing view and the view of the elite in society, particularly when groups on the lowest rungs of that society feel it is directed at them.

Much in the same way that Trump uses 'Freedom of Speech' and defending 'Liberty' to sanction the oppression of already oppressed members of society.

I don't know what the answer is, terrorism cannot suceed as a tool for change. However, what Charlie Hebdo stood for cannot continue to be blindly defended, without seeing it for what it was.

OP posts:
NeverAMillionMilesAway · 17/10/2020 11:23

@CaribouCarafe is it that easy to move abroad though? Lots of these nutters were born here and are British citizens.
No more than someone can just decide to move to the UK from most countries in the world without either a British passport or a really complicated criteria can people who are citizens here just up and move to a country with Sharia law on a whim.

NeverAMillionMilesAway · 17/10/2020 11:25

@CaribouCarafe

I believe these people are less likely to be triggered if they already live in a country that aligns with their beliefs (e.g. a predominantly Muslim country or Muslim theocracy) than if they live in a western secular democracy.
You must be joking. Muslims countries have suffered more from islamic terrorism than any Western country has- probably more than all of them put together.
CaribouCarafe · 17/10/2020 11:26

[quote NeverAMillionMilesAway]**@CaribouCarafe is it that easy to move abroad though? Lots of these nutters were born here and are British citizens.
No more than someone can just decide to move to the UK from most countries in the world without either a British passport or a really complicated criteria can people who are citizens here just up and move to a country with Sharia law on a whim.[/quote]
Depends on their skills and the immigration laws of the country they want to move to. If they already have French or British citizenship, they're already in a good position to move - I moved recently to a predominantly Muslim country with absolutely no issues on account of my British passport. I would have had a tougher time if I only had an Iranian passport.

madderose · 17/10/2020 11:26

Surely thought is needed about the reasons this happened to stop it happening again.

Yeah let's shut down CH and give the terrorists and murderers what they want.

It was a CARTOON

CaribouCarafe · 17/10/2020 11:27

@NeverAMillionMilesAway fair point.

cabotstove · 17/10/2020 11:27

These angry (generally) men wont suddenly find peace because people stop offending them. They will just use another excuse for violence.

queenofknives · 17/10/2020 11:29

@PurpleDaisies

Surely thought is needed about the reasons this happened to stop it happening again.

The reason this happened was because a terrorise behaved like a terrorist. This did not happen because the teacher did anything wrong. Blaming the victim is disgusting.

OP your view is also patronising in the extreme. According to you, "privileged" people should give up free speech in order to protect the poor oppressed people who can't process diversity of ideas and thinking and so naturally respond with terrorism...??? Please have a think about what you're saying.

Oppressed people are precisely the people who need their freedom of speech the most. How do you campaign for better treatment if your right to speech has been banned - and to add insult to injury, you're told this is for your own good?

TheOneWhoWalksInTheSun · 17/10/2020 11:29

Op
You terrify me.
No exaggeration.

Oliversmumsarmy · 17/10/2020 11:30

is it that easy to move abroad though

Very easy.

I was in the process pre Covid
Friends with British passports now live all over the world.

Definitely very easy.

queenofknives · 17/10/2020 11:30

@TheOneWhoWalksInTheSun

Op You terrify me. No exaggeration.
Yes, same.
RoyalCorgi · 17/10/2020 11:34

Who was the woman being interviewed? I'd like to go and listen to the interview.

IfNotNow12 · 17/10/2020 11:43

I agree with Caribou and was coming on to say something similar. It's patronising ion the extreme to suggest that the poor oppressed Muslims (not moslems btw, wtf?) can't cope with being offended and must be protected from satire.
It IS a bit shit being Muslim in France in a lot of ways, but this teacher was teaching a class on politics, and was explaining a terrorist atrocity to schoolchildren. He did absolutely nothing wrong, even if he might have offended a few individuals, being offended isn't an excuse for any kind of violence, ever.
I also agree that extreme Islamists do not want assimilation, and it's extremely naïve to assume they do. Obviously most Muslims are not extreme, and are just as sickened by violent terrorist acts as everyone else.

rashalert · 17/10/2020 11:44

OP. Do you mean that no-one should criticise Islam (an oppressed minority as you refer to them) and that if they do, while accepting that beheading them is wrong, they know the possible consequences?

Have I got that wrong?

ResplendentAutumn · 17/10/2020 11:47

It's not the satire causing alienation!it's the response to it..
Doesn't reflect well.

Muslim immans should not have allowed it to be shared at the mosque and helped their congregation to get a sense of proportion and rationale.

bibbitybobbitycats · 17/10/2020 11:48

@cabotstove

These angry (generally) men wont suddenly find peace because people stop offending them. They will just use another excuse for violence.
This.
CayrolBaaaskin · 17/10/2020 11:53

@Oliversmumsarmy - emm it’s really not easy to just move to another country. It may be for some but depends on circumstances.

Also do we really think it’s ok to just export terrorists? Islamic countries suffer more from terrorism than others as it is.

MadameMeursault · 17/10/2020 11:58

OP I think I agree with you and I also think I’m not very good at expressing it!

We do not actually have true freedom of speech because there are laws about inciting religious or racial hatred, and rightly so imo. I don’t see why people can’t just all live in the world in harmony and try not to upset each other. CH deliberately set out to offend with those cartoons and whilst I don’t think anyone deserves to die for it, and do not agree with violence as an answer anyway, I also don’t think they should have done it.

woodhill · 17/10/2020 12:02

[quote CaribouCarafe]@NeverAMillionMilesAway fair point.[/quote]
Very sensible perspective - Caribou

VinylDetective · 17/10/2020 12:06

Surely thought is needed about the reasons this happened to stop it happening again

The reason it happened is because some people are extremist nutters. I’m not sure how you legislate against that.

ilikemethewayiam · 17/10/2020 12:07

[quote CayrolBaaaskin]@ilikemethewayiam that does sound big like “terrorists can go back home”. It’s worrying to me that freedom is not protected in every country and it should be.[/quote]
I agree somewhat. I’m guessing the terrorist was a French citizen so already in his own country. That said, there are lots of countries that support his ideology and would welcome him. The problem is we can’t police the world! In the western world it took centuries for serfs to win their freedoms And civil liberties from the elites, sometimes with loss of life. It wasn’t handed on a plate. In an ideal world all countries would be at this stage of civilisation with a rule of law. It is up to them to fight for it like our forefathers did. They fought and died for us to have these freedoms. I am native English, born and bred, but if at any point the values of my country no longer work for me I will look to emigrate to a country that does (if they’ll have me)

queenofknives · 17/10/2020 12:09

I don’t see why people can’t just all live in the world in harmony and try not to upset each other.

I don't see why we can't live in a world where people can say what they like even if it upsets people and not be murdered for it. You've just upset me quite a bit but I don't think you deserve to die for it. Do you? It honestly sounds like the way abuse victims talk about the people abusing them... better not upset him, better not say anything he doesn't like... Your victim blaming is offensive.

RoyalCorgi · 17/10/2020 12:11

The reports of the attack say the teacher invited Muslim pupils to leave the class before he showed the cartoon. One pupil stayed and chose to be offended.

Monty12345 · 17/10/2020 12:19

I'm going to the Middle East to help out as a nurse. I fully expect to be eventually captured and beheaded for doing this, but hopefully I'll be able to help lots of people in distress and with terrible injuries before it happens. But if I was a teacher in a western country I would not expect the same fate for teaching children about satire. It's disgusting.

AuldAlliance · 17/10/2020 12:19

OP, I'm a teacher in France. I'll leave you to imagine how I am feeling today.
Your posts are dangerous and shocking.

Yes, there is deeply ingrained racism in France. Yes, things are often hard for Muslims. Yes, that needs to be addressed.

No, that does not in any way, shape or form begin to explain or, as you seem to be trying to do, justify the barbaric beheading of a teacher who was trying to help his pupils learn about freedom of speech - a concept that is tricky to balance but that is nonetheless vital in Western democracy. What happened yesterday is an affront to basic human values as well as to the fundamental principles of French society. A society which, I will remind you, was built after a violent struggle against religious obscurantism and oppression and in which secularism is a core value.

No, that does not mean that satirists like Charlie Hebdo, whose stock in trade is a very French form of provocation, should change what they do in case angry young men burst in to their offices with military grade weapons and murder those present, including people who had nothing to do with the anti-Islamist caricatures. I work on satire a lot, and am aware of how it uses discomfort and provocation to achieve its ends. I don't like Charlie Hebdo much, because a lot of it is a bit OTT or childish for me. So I don't read it. You have to actively look for it in newsagents and kiosks and buy it if you want to see these caricatures: no one is shoving them in anyone's face, and the teacher who was murdered warned his pupils that some might be offended by the images and said they should feel free to leave the room if they wished. He was trying to balance the important lesson he was giving with his pupils' sensibilities.

One thing that is emerging from this story is how dangerous social media can be in fomenting anger and hatred on the basis of often distorted, second-hand interpretations of events.

It would be infinitely preferable if, on a day like this, people thought twice before posting warped, half-baked, victim-blaming "thoughts."

madderose · 17/10/2020 12:22

Murder is wrong.

As a crime Murder is not in the same ballpark as drawing a cartoon, regardless of how 'provocative' it is.

I can't believe people are trying to suggest that one is equivalent to the other. How are we even debating this??