Did anyone hear the woman defending Charlie Hebdo on R4 Today?

[Icantthinkofabettername]

I read about the awful attack on the teacher in France last night. It is just horrific an no one should face that risk.

However, the spokesperson on the Today programme was spectacularly missing the point. She was defending freedom of speech and advocating children being taught about satire.

In my view, there is nothing groundbreaking about using satire to perpetuate the prevailing view and the view of the elite in society, particularly when groups on the lowest rungs of that society feel it is directed at them.

Much in the same way that Trump uses 'Freedom of Speech' and defending 'Liberty' to sanction the oppression of already oppressed members of society.

I don't know what the answer is, terrorism cannot suceed as a tool for change. However, what Charlie Hebdo stood for cannot continue to be blindly defended, without seeing it for what it was.

I don't understand your point? What does white supremacy have to do with Charlie Hebdo?

I am offended by the increasing violence in my home country and as a result, as soon as I practically can, I am going to move to a country more in line with my expectations. I am not blaming anyone for this. I am making a free choice about this.

What does white supremacy have to do with Charlie Hebdo?

I presume OP feels we should ban criticism and mockery white supremacy because they might get violent.

Presumably Charlie Chaplin is to blame for the holocaust because he upset Hitler.

@Icantthinkofabettername

I read about the awful attack on the teacher in France last night. It is just horrific an no one should face that risk.

However, the spokesperson on the Today programme was spectacularly missing the point. She was defending freedom of speech and advocating children being taught about satire.

In my view, there is nothing groundbreaking about using satire to perpetuate the prevailing view and the view of the elite in society, particularly when groups on the lowest rungs of that society feel it is directed at them.

Much in the same way that Trump uses 'Freedom of Speech' and defending 'Liberty' to sanction the oppression of already oppressed members of society.

I don't know what the answer is, terrorism cannot suceed as a tool for change. However, what Charlie Hebdo stood for cannot continue to be blindly defended, without seeing it for what it was.

Oh and satire doesn't just perpetuate the prevailing view and the view of the elite in society. It's available depicting all subjects and views.

Making out that moslems are on the lowest rungs of society to back up your view is a stretch too. My neighbours are moslems. They are minted and drive a merc. Good luck to them, they earned it.

Trump is an anomaly all of his own. Bringing America into your thread has little to do with what happened in France.

@raddledoldmisanthropist yes I wonder. Very slippery slope if offence is justification for murder.

What I think is missed in it, is that those subject to/following that religion often feel that the satire is mocking them

Ummm, yeah. It is. It's satire ffs.

Freedom of speech is not an absolute right. There are crimes such as Inciting racial hatred or civil wrongs of being sued for defamation. But being beheaded is never and should never be the penalty for anything not least saying what someone else doesn’t like.

You seem to be excusing these attacks like maybe they’re somehow the fault of the victims for saying the wrong thing. That’s pretty horrifying. Dressing it up in being woke makes it no better.

@PurpleDaisies

Surely thought is needed about the reasons this happened to stop it happening again.

The reason this happened was because a terrorise behaved like a terrorist. This did not happen because the teacher did anything wrong. Blaming the victim is disgusting.

^^ this!!

Being a Muslim in France is not a comfortable position to be in, the satire creates more discomfort and alienation.

Do you think being Jewish in France is a comfortable position?

Also BLM protesters do have freedom of speech. So does trump have freedom of speech to criticize them. I don’t agree with trump but my recourse is to say so rather than to behead him.

I would like for terrorist incidents of this kind to never happen again, surely you need to consider why it happens

I was under the impression it happens because certain people can’t see the joke/satire and can’t laugh at themselves, their religion, their government or leaders or even themselves too seriously.

Everyone has a different opinion are you saying that we mustn’t express our opinion because it might get us killed.

Freedom of speech is sacrosanct. Whether you agree or disagree with someone it gives you the right to express your opinion and others to express theirs.
Are you saying we shouldn’t have freedom of speech because someone might disagree with us and chop our heads off.

So not having freedom of speech is going to save lives?

What do you think should happen?

Is there going to be a list of subjects you can discuss and what opinions people are allowed to have so we don’t upset terrorists or anyone who can’t understand our humour.

Would you ban Spitting Image because it pokes fun at leading figures in the government and media.

At least we can say bad things about the government. There is a thread on here atm about what people think of Kier Starmer.

Should only people who have positive remarks be able to post otherwise we might upset someone who thinks he needs defending and they track us down and behead us.

Can you not see how ridiculous that sounds.

@silentpool

I think Western countries have always made it clear that they value freedom of speech. Its no secret. If you cannot mount a sensible counter argument and need to resort to violence to make your point, you should maybe consider if Western countries are working for you? Lots of countries out there to choose from.

Totally this^

@cabotstove - indeed. What about the 7 year old in a Jewish school in France who was shot in the head by a terrorist? Is she at fault for being Jewish or for daring to express Jewish beliefs?

We absolutely cannot and should not protect against terrorists by trying to censor what they don’t like. That way they’ve won.

@CaribouCarafe

I grew up Muslim in the UK. I am an immigrant to the UK. I'm here to say that there is no excuse for the terrorist's behaviour. It happened because the terrorist was a violent maniac, that's the root cause. The teacher did nothing wrong.

If a person absolutely can't deal with the laws and customs of the country in which they reside, they ought to leave and live in a country that aligns to their beliefs. It's that simple. We don't have the right to murder people for offending us.

This type of hand-wringing over poor terrorists really hacks me off - any decent Muslim is against this line of thought.

Excellent post.

@ilikemethewayiam that does sound big like “terrorists can go back home”. It’s worrying to me that freedom is not protected in every country and it should be.

@CayrolBaaaskin exactly what was that little girls offence @Icantthinkofabettername?

If you need to name change to start a thread. Maybe you need to consider why that might be.

Perhsphs not engaging with people who join or name change to start threads like this might be the best option.

You can’t murder someone because their opinion has offended you.

@CaribouCarafe - is it really a response to violent or extremist behaviour that the terrorist should go live somewhere else? Don’t people in all countries deserve protection from that?

@CaribouCarafe Says all that needs to be said.

So some freedom of speech is allowed in your utopia but only if it kind?

It's this kind of muddle headed thinking that led to the wide scale grooming gangs and abuse rings across parts of northern England, because people were worried about mentioning the fact that the abusers were of Bangladeshi and Pakistani origin. People were more worried about their rights than about protecting the little girls who were being raped.

@cabotstove Her name was Miriam Monsonego.

I would like for terrorist incidents of this kind to never happen again, surely you need to consider why it happens

It doesn't happen because people offend other people. It happens because insane fringe elements decide they are permitted to kill people because they offended them. So, to stop it happening, you have to someone get these insane fringe elements to accept that they do not have the right to kill other people because they are personally offended by what they say.
The answer is not to stop others from potential offending nutcases.

[quote CayrolBaaaskin]@CaribouCarafe - is it really a response to violent or extremist behaviour that the terrorist should go live somewhere else? Don’t people in all countries deserve protection from that?[/quote]
The solution lies with the person themselves - either they change their thought pattern and adjust to living in wider society, or they report themselves to the police for monitoring, or they move. That's it. Those are the choices.

Governments should continue policies that seek to foster integration between communities and policies that will penalise racist behaviour against minorities. However, there will always be a point in which a person is responsible for adjusting towards living within the wider society. If they can't, then they need to move.

You have to understand that for some of these people, as a PP mentioned, they want Sharia law and nothing else. They will never be happy in a western secular democracy, and they're waiting for a trigger point at which they can act on their beliefs. There's not much wider society can do to help these people.

I believe these people are less likely to be triggered if they already live in a country that aligns with their beliefs (e.g. a predominantly Muslim country or Muslim theocracy) than if they live in a western secular democracy.