Did anyone hear the woman defending Charlie Hebdo on R4 Today?

[Icantthinkofabettername]

I read about the awful attack on the teacher in France last night. It is just horrific an no one should face that risk.

However, the spokesperson on the Today programme was spectacularly missing the point. She was defending freedom of speech and advocating children being taught about satire.

In my view, there is nothing groundbreaking about using satire to perpetuate the prevailing view and the view of the elite in society, particularly when groups on the lowest rungs of that society feel it is directed at them.

Much in the same way that Trump uses 'Freedom of Speech' and defending 'Liberty' to sanction the oppression of already oppressed members of society.

I don't know what the answer is, terrorism cannot suceed as a tool for change. However, what Charlie Hebdo stood for cannot continue to be blindly defended, without seeing it for what it was.

It would be infinitely preferable if, on a day like this, people thought twice before posting warped, half-baked, victim-blaming "thoughts."

This!

CayrolBaaaskin

I was just commenting on how easy it was to move countries.

One of my friends sold everything and loaded the kids in the car to set off to find a place that made her happy. The UK was making her miserable.

It is very very easy to move countries. I agree places like the US are a little more difficult if you are UK born with UK parents. But for others it is a case of form filling and waiting.

@AuldAlliance

OP, I'm a teacher in France. I'll leave you to imagine how I am feeling today. Your posts are dangerous and shocking.

Yes, there is deeply ingrained racism in France. Yes, things are often hard for Muslims. Yes, that needs to be addressed.

No, that does not in any way, shape or form begin to explain or, as you seem to be trying to do, justify the barbaric beheading of a teacher who was trying to help his pupils learn about freedom of speech - a concept that is tricky to balance but that is nonetheless vital in Western democracy. What happened yesterday is an affront to basic human values as well as to the fundamental principles of French society. A society which, I will remind you, was built after a violent struggle against religious obscurantism and oppression and in which secularism is a core value.

No, that does not mean that satirists like Charlie Hebdo, whose stock in trade is a very French form of provocation, should change what they do in case angry young men burst in to their offices with military grade weapons and murder those present, including people who had nothing to do with the anti-Islamist caricatures. I work on satire a lot, and am aware of how it uses discomfort and provocation to achieve its ends. I don't like Charlie Hebdo much, because a lot of it is a bit OTT or childish for me. So I don't read it. You have to actively look for it in newsagents and kiosks and buy it if you want to see these caricatures: no one is shoving them in anyone's face, and the teacher who was murdered warned his pupils that some might be offended by the images and said they should feel free to leave the room if they wished. He was trying to balance the important lesson he was giving with his pupils' sensibilities.

One thing that is emerging from this story is how dangerous social media can be in fomenting anger and hatred on the basis of often distorted, second-hand interpretations of events.

It would be infinitely preferable if, on a day like this, people thought twice before posting warped, half-baked, victim-blaming "thoughts."

Excellent post. I'm a teacher, too. This is an unbelievably distressing attack, and the idea that anyone could even try to justify it is genuinely shocking.

It reminds me a bit of Amanda Palmer's horrendous ode in praise of the poor oppressed Boston bomber a few years ago. These people don't realise or don't care how completely patronising and actually racist they are being, assuming that "these people" can't help being "triggered" and it's not their fault if white people will go around provoking them.

Possibly they wouldn't move as the West offers healthcare, education and housing whilst permitting freedom to live how you want to some extent

I also don’t understand the weird victim blaming point of this thread, @Icantthinkofabettername.

The thing about education is that it is often uncomfortable. The teacher was teaching about freedom of speech and the controversies around it. I’d imagine the students would be able to discuss the issues using the Charlie Hebdo cartoons as a very relevant example.

It’s ridiculous that you have to offer students the opportunity to leave the room because they’re religious sensibilities are too offended to even participate in a discussion - where presumably they would have the opportunity to explain why they felt there should be limits on freedom of expression in this case. In fact, I might go so far as to say that giving the offended the chance to opt out of the debate risks legitimising refusal to engage in any debate (and contributed to the feelings among a minority of people that they can and should ‘punish’ those who offend them).

Wouldn’t it be better if we all learned to make points in a reasonable manner, and listened to different opinions (so that we might open our minds and possibly change our initial positions)? Doing that requires us to consider and properly think about viewpoints that make us angry.

I regularly have to explain to students at university that the questions I ask are not necessarily representative of my own views. I’m trying to get them to look again at the views they’ve expressed and consider how robust their arguments are in the face of counter arguments. And also to consider whether the evidence actually leads to the conclusion they’ve drawn. It’s hard, because first you have to work against a widespread viewpoint that they should never be challenged or offended (rather than seeing either as an opportunity to properly consider their views so as to produce a more considered opinion).

I was so upset when I read about this yesterday, as an ex teacher; Samuel Paty was just doing his job. It will make it so much harder for teachers everywhere to do their jobs.

If you don't want to live in a secular society, then don't move to Western Europe.

OP, you appear to be entirely missing the point whilst thinking that everyone else is missing the point. "Terrorism" is simply another side of the same coin as Trump and all the other advocates of hate. "Islamic" terrorists are people, just like Trumps followers, who have perverted the very thing that they claim to follow / believe; people who are blinded by the rhetoric of powerful (usually male) self-proclaimed leaders who use their acolytes to further their own position, power and wealth.

The way to stop such events is to educate. There are many people whose opinions I loathe, but I am not moved to murder them. Condoning those who do murder, or blaming people for their own deaths / imprisonment or sanctions because they expressed their genuinely held views is never acceptable. I despise Trump, and I despise his views. But the way to manage that is showing he is wrong through thoughts and deeds, and by rejecting this sort of leadership. Not by murder.

Being a Muslim in France is not a comfortable position to be in

Well that’s a pretty reductive stance. I have French Muslim friends who are bank managers, university lecturers, Management MBA students, nannies, you name it. What makes them uncomfortable is people assuming they are an oppressed minority.

@notafanoftheman

Being a Muslim in France is not a comfortable position to be in

Well that’s a pretty reductive stance. I have French Muslim friends who are bank managers, university lecturers, Management MBA students, nannies, you name it. What makes them uncomfortable is people assuming they are an oppressed minority.

And people assuming that "terrorists" who claim to follow Islam are actually doing so. Just because someone says that they are following a specific faith or belief system doesn't mean that they are doing so. Just because Donald Trump stood outside a church waving a Bible doesn't make him a Christian. And just because a criminal claims that they have acted in the name of God, doesn't make that so. Have a look at what the "peaceful" Buddhists are doing in Myanmar.

And I am not having a pop at faith here. It doesn't matter what you call yourself, or what "good" you claim to uphold. When you commit crimes against humanity, even when it is only one person, you are perpetrating evil.

When The Book of Mormon musical came out, Mormons decided to take out a double page advert in the musical's pamphlet saying "You've seen the show, now read the book!" .

I thought that was a great.

I had a similar argument this morning over breakfast. My OH reacted strongly when I described the teacher as being provocative. I do believe he was but I do also believe that he was teaching a subject that needed to be taught. Children must learn that freedom of speech is an essential part of a democratic free society. it's unfortunate in the extreme that the teacher paid the ultimate price for expressing his freedom.

How was the teacher "being provocative"? Do you have any idea how offensive and provocative YOU are being right now? If you have the right to express abhorrent views, which you clearly do, then how do you justify denying that right to others? And please explain what is so "provocative" about a teacher doing their actual job.

Part of the reason, the French where able to overthrow the monarchy was due to satirical pamphlets issued to the masses, deriding the royalty. I e taking away that mystique and fear around the supposed, divine right of Kings.

Much of this comes down to a difference in what people class as education as well.

To me it's educating, arming the child with knowledge, giving them the strength, confidence and tools to be an open thinker who makes up their own mind etc.

Someone who can flow with the tide at their choosing or stand agaisnt it.
To others education, is aka brainwashing... Isn't it.

On all kinds of subjects! Education in Saudi is not what we would call an education here at all.

Maybe parents need to sign something in France to agree to the French and western style of open Liberal education?

Generally speaking, oppressed people don't go around issuing death threats and beheading people, and especially not in the name of free speech and democracy.

@K00kiEe

When The Book of Mormon musical came out, Mormons decided to take out a double page advert in the musical's pamphlet saying "You've seen the show, now read the book!" .

I thought that was a great.

That's brilliant! I didn't know that.

I think op here is unfortunately an example of the intolerance of people who think they are “righteous”. That can be an Islamic fundamentalist or trump supporter or woke liberal. Dissent and other viewpoints are not to be tolerated or listened to - their view is the only acceptable one.

@CayrolBaaaskin

I think op here is unfortunately an example of the intolerance of people who think they are “righteous”. That can be an Islamic fundamentalist or trump supporter or woke liberal. Dissent and other viewpoints are not to be tolerated or listened to - their view is the only acceptable one.

You’re trying to say that those defending Freedom of Speech are the intolerant ones?

Nice try but it doesn’t make sense.

An utterly awful terrorist act which should be punished accordingly.

Many have pointed out that we shouldnt be changing freedom of speech to please terrorists, only mocking the prophet Muhammed is offensive to all muslims and many made themselves heard by demonstrating in marches around the world.

Freedom of speech somes with responsibilty, if everyone could say whatever they wanted then people could say women who are victims of domestic violence bring it on themselves, if enough of us believe and say this we eventually repress women who are victims of domestic violence, and it's highly offensive to those who have had to live with DV. I think that is the point op is making with reference to Donald Trump.

If people dont like their wacky religions or racist beliefs being made fun of, they could try to approach life in a more rational and sane way. As opposed to murdering those they disagree with in order to silence any opposition permanently.
If you read the Abrahmic religions’ texts you will find that they are religions of very jealous gods who demand warfare and total devotion to the patriarchal structure in their societies.
I know scholars have twisted their brains to make out that these are peaceful religions promoting love and togetherness, but they most definitely are not. You need to read the texts upside-down, with purple glasses in a Dark room, preferably from around a corner to Get that kind of meaning out og the Talmud/Bible/Quran and the Hadiths. Possible exception are a few bits in the New Testament.
Anyway; no, you do not stop these awful things happening by pandering to oppressive schools of thought. You just shoot yourself in the foot.

People CAN say that women bring violence on themselves and they DO frequently, to the point that it can materially affect the experience of women in these situations. The answer is not to curtail our right to speak for ourselves! I do not need some know it all telling me what it is and isn't okay to think and say. The victim blaming on this thread is abhorrent to me but you have the right to say what you like. It's better that you speak up and then people can counter your views with more rational and humane ones. Freedom of speech is a fundamental human right without which all our other rights are up for grabs.

@turbonerd If people dont like their wacky religions or racist beliefs being made fun of, they could try to approach life in a more rational and sane way.

Shouldn't people have freedom of belief/religion? Again irresponsible use of freedom of speech.

Fuck me are you serious?! I will defwnd charlie hebdo until the day i die and went on the march after it happened.

Freedom of speech and satire. How dare you suggest we should stop that because it might hurt a terrorists feelings.

You do understand feelings are just feelings right? So i hurt your feelings with my words? So what? I deserve to die or be harmed physically?

We should always be free to saterise religion and beliefs not grounded in absolute fact. Always.

CH deliberately set out to offend with those cartoons
But so what? I want to live in a society where people set out to be provocative sometimes. I want to be given the opportunity to have a debate about pretty much anything. I'm not short of an opinion on most things, and I have pretty strong views according to some, but if I hear views I find offensive I won't curl up in a ball and cry, or go on a killing spree.

[quote Haditover]**@turbonerd* If people dont like their wacky religions or racist beliefs being made fun of, they could try to approach life in a more rational and sane way.*

Shouldn't people have freedom of belief/religion? Again irresponsible use of freedom of speech.[/quote]
Entirely agree. There’s freedom of speech and then there’s mindless, pointless insult.