Did anyone hear the woman defending Charlie Hebdo on R4 Today?

[Icantthinkofabettername]

I read about the awful attack on the teacher in France last night. It is just horrific an no one should face that risk.

However, the spokesperson on the Today programme was spectacularly missing the point. She was defending freedom of speech and advocating children being taught about satire.

In my view, there is nothing groundbreaking about using satire to perpetuate the prevailing view and the view of the elite in society, particularly when groups on the lowest rungs of that society feel it is directed at them.

Much in the same way that Trump uses 'Freedom of Speech' and defending 'Liberty' to sanction the oppression of already oppressed members of society.

I don't know what the answer is, terrorism cannot suceed as a tool for change. However, what Charlie Hebdo stood for cannot continue to be blindly defended, without seeing it for what it was.

@silentpool, yes that’s what I meant.

His comment “Excess and rudeness are not a method” is quite ironic given that CH cartoons are the epitome of this.

He should have instead said “beheading and violence are not a method”

Yes but Trut, excess and rudeness are still not crimes in France, however, beheading is. Do you think people being excessive and rude is as offensive as beheading someone?

Also,the people emigrating to Europe should stop trying to impose their standards on the indigenous population, that is where it is all going wrong imo not the other way around

@woodhill

Also,the people emigrating to Europe should stop trying to impose their standards on the indigenous population, that is where it is all going wrong imo not the other way around

I agree.

Protecting host countries culture should take precedent over offending the immigrant culture.

This 'multiculturalism' is not working.

@monstermancs

Yes but Trut, excess and rudeness are still not crimes in France, however, beheading is. Do you think people being excessive and rude is as offensive as beheading someone?

Did you read my post?

🤔 I am trying to find anyone on this thread who hasn’t expressed horror, disgust and sadness at beheading or any other type of violence.

In case you are not aware, beheading is a crime in pretty much every country. Including Turkey, I presume. Even though their human rights in general could do with an overhaul.

..Although there are 9 countries where you can be killed by the state within the law for apostacy (i.e. renouncing your faith) and I bet people don't need to say which of Christianity or Islam that is.

While state sanctioned killings sadly exists in some/many countries, I am not aware of any that condones a random person beheading another.

But then, there are honour killings and mob violence where governments may look the other way. And state sponsored interference/terrorism. And religious dogma in some countries where public institutions/health systems deny rights to abortion even when women’s lives are at risk.

You are right, some states do sadly directly or indirectly support people being violent to their fellowmen/women (well, especially violent towards women)

I think states that have insufficient demarcation between public and private and where religion is allowed and entrenched in the public sphere (instead of being a private belief) are probably more likely to be this way.

@Xenia

..Although there are 9 countries where you can be killed by the state within the law for apostacy (i.e. renouncing your faith) and I bet people don't need to say which of Christianity or Islam that is.

Yes terrible like England In Tudor times. I think that is the problem, a reformation in Islam is needed and if someone wants to change religion then it it is their choice

Can you renounce Islam?

"Many Muslims consider the Islamic law on apostasy and the punishment for it to be one of the immutable laws under Islam.[103] It is a hudud crime,[104][105] which means it is a crime against God,[106] and the punishment has been fixed by God. The punishment for apostasy includes[107] state enforced annulment of his or her marriage, seizure of the person's children and property with automatic assignment to guardians and heirs, and death for the apostate.[98][108][109]

According to some scholars, if a Muslim consciously and without coercion declares their rejection of Islam and does not change their mind after the time allocated by a judge for research, then the penalty for apostasy is; for males, death, and for females, life imprisonment.[110][111]

According to the Ahmadiyya Muslim sect, there is no punishment for apostasy, neither in the Quran nor as it was taught by Muhammad.[112] The Ahmadiyya Muslim sect's position is not widely accepted by clerics in other sects of Islam, and the Ahmadiyya sect of Islam acknowledges that major sects have a different interpretation and definition of apostasy in Islam.[112]:18–25 Ulama of major sects of Islam consider the Ahmadi Muslim sect as kafirs (infidels)[112]:8 and apostates.[113][114]

Today, apostasy is a crime in 16 out of 49 Muslim majority countries; in other Muslim nations such as Morocco, apostasy is not illegal but proselytizing to Muslims is.[21] It is subject to the death penalty in some countries, such as Iran and Saudi Arabia, although executions for apostasy are rare. Apostasy is legal in secular Muslim countries such as Turkey.[115] In numerous Islamic majority countries, many individuals have been arrested and punished for the crime of apostasy without any associated capital crimes.[26][116][117][118] In a 2013 report based on an international survey of religious attitudes, more than 50% of the Muslim population in 6 Islamic countries supported the death penalty for any Muslim who leaves Islam (apostasy).[119][120] A similar survey of the Muslim population in the United Kingdom, in 2007, found nearly a third of 16 to 24-year-old faithfuls believed that Muslims who convert to another religion should be executed, while less than a fifth of those over 55 believed the same.[121] There is disagreement among contemporary Islamic scholars about whether the death penalty is an appropriate punishment for apostasy in the 21st century.[122] A belief among more liberal Islamic scholars is that the apostasy laws were created and are still implemented as a means to consolidate "religio-political" power.[122] "

Due to colonisation France has 5th 4th etc generations living in France, its all well and good saying immigrants should live and think their way but when does an immigrant be considered a citizen with equal rights? It’s too late for France to be a monocultural society that shipped has already sailed.
With 1.9 billion Muslims in the world and 6 million in France, very very few are beheaders or violent in anyway otherwise you’d really know about it! It was France historically that were the most efficient beheaders with their guillotine.
Again if you look at the last 200 years , Europeans were arguably the most barbaric if you think about it, starting two world wars, the trans Atlantic slave trade. The terror of the colonies that brought genocide and famine to many citizens of the word. Not to mention the holocaust and the only people to use nuclear weapons. I wouldn’t be overly concerned about what a silly survey says about Muslim people, worry about the mentality of Europeans from their own actions.

A similar survey of the Muslim population in the United Kingdom, in 2007, found nearly a third of 16 to 24-year-old faithfuls believed that Muslims who convert to another religion should be executed

When I see things like this I can’t help but think this is a bunch of teenagers pissing about - British Muslim teenagers are still teenagers and they must think the answer options to these kind of things are hilarious

@WelcomeToManderley

A similar survey of the Muslim population in the United Kingdom, in 2007, found nearly a third of 16 to 24-year-old faithfuls believed that Muslims who convert to another religion should be executed

When I see things like this I can’t help but think this is a bunch of teenagers pissing about - British Muslim teenagers are still teenagers and they must think the answer options to these kind of things are hilarious

I don't know. The perpetrator in this case was 18.

This thread is getting nasty. There are millions of Muslims all over the world. The tone of this thread is turning into one where all Muslims are barbaric enemies to be done away with.

Absolutely no one ever said all. A man lost his life for showing done teenager a cartoon. A teacher. In a western country. So please don't start trying to shit a conversation about that down with emotive whining about how it's nasty. A teacher being killed is nasty.

Black and white thinking just shows your ignorance. Btw not all Muslims speak Arabic but don't let that cloud your 'intelligence'

@MarriedtoDaveGrohl

You talk about Muslims as if they are a disease. You sound venomous. Muslims are not animals who have “broken ranks” or that need to be “tolerated”.

You need to remember that the Holocaust in Europe didn’t just suddenly happen one day. It took years and years of racism and stereotyping, superiority, irrational fears, feelings leftover from wars and feelings to justify wars. The Jews were used as scapegoats for political failures and legislation was passed that directly affected them - something which a lot of people feel Macron is currently doing.

You need to take a step back and check yourself. There are 1.9 million Muslims on this planet, most of them will be trying to live happy lives, just like everyone else.

Everybody on this thread has condemned the brutal extremist attacks, I haven’t seen any terrorist sympathisers.

I think people are fearful as there has been mass immigration to the West since the 90s and the areas that they have lived in all their life are changing. People's fears are rubbished.

Woodhull
You talk as if it's only Muslims that are coming over. In recent times it's been other races and religions (assuming you're in UK)

Areas have always changed, it’s a constant. It will never stop. There have always been complaints. The Jews, the Irish, the Windrush generation....

People are inherently good. We shouldn’t let the evil few turn us against each other, it’s no way to live.

I also think that if Germany had been more multicultural in the 30s then maybe the holocaust would never have happened.

@stairway

I also think that if Germany had been more multicultural in the 30s then maybe the holocaust would never have happened.

Stairway, you have some very ill informed positions. Please go and read a serious history book to understand what happened, instead of spouting nonsense.

@stairway

I also think that if Germany had been more multicultural in the 30s then maybe the holocaust would never have happened.

You always bring up the Jews. Why? What have they got to do with this? I see this a lot on these kinds of debates. You shut my free speech down when all I'm doing is pointing out that books and articles by people who have lived within the Muslim faith Clearly say that it isn't a utopia of tolerance.

Then talk about a totally different religion.

This isnt about people being 'different' or 'brown' it's about the way a religion sees the world.

People are allowed to be deeply uncomfortable about the way parts of that religion affects how it's followers behave.

And by the way it's an anti semetic religion.

You know a lot of us have heard things, and seen things, and have read things that portray Islam awfully. Yes, there are some Muslims who are dickheads but you can apply that to any religion and any race. A lot of shit gets said behind closed doors but for some reason you’ve been blindsided by hatred towards Islam. Ex-Muslims are notorious for leaving Islam and then never talking about anything else but Islam, ever there’s a clear agenda and it’s very easy to fall down internet black holes.

I compare to the Jews because if I sent you back to 1941 you’d fit right in with how you speak about your “concerns” regarding people who follow a religion you don’t agree with or deem acceptable. It’s reads as if you deem yourself as more intelligent, more superior and more worthy.