Did anyone hear the woman defending Charlie Hebdo on R4 Today?

[Icantthinkofabettername]

I read about the awful attack on the teacher in France last night. It is just horrific an no one should face that risk.

However, the spokesperson on the Today programme was spectacularly missing the point. She was defending freedom of speech and advocating children being taught about satire.

In my view, there is nothing groundbreaking about using satire to perpetuate the prevailing view and the view of the elite in society, particularly when groups on the lowest rungs of that society feel it is directed at them.

Much in the same way that Trump uses 'Freedom of Speech' and defending 'Liberty' to sanction the oppression of already oppressed members of society.

I don't know what the answer is, terrorism cannot suceed as a tool for change. However, what Charlie Hebdo stood for cannot continue to be blindly defended, without seeing it for what it was.

The problems with distribution of wealth in this country is not the fault of immigrants. During the brexit campaign there was a lot of anti immigration rhetoric from politicians and the media. It seems the main reason we are leaving the EU is because of anti immigration sentiment.

Mass immigration has driven down wages for the low skilled and pushed up the cost of housing. People who don't have the means to move at the drop of a hat are frozen in place watching their communities change. It's the working class who are affected negatively and it's the working class who get called knuckle dragging racists if they dare to speak out.

Yes the main reason we are leaving EU is because of anti immigration sentiment. Because of Merkel etc . It was a protest vote - no matter how illogical it may seem or how financially damaging it will be - the silent majority were protesting.

There are many who resist change and who secretly harbour views that are no longer considered socially acceptable. Twas ever thus

Over time and with education and experience those views often change

Do people change or do they just adjust their rhetoric to the company they keep.

I know some who change their opinions depending on who they speak to.

I still think that if we had freedom of speech then gambling the country on a referendum might not have happened.

@MarriedtoDaveGrohl simple reason: they’ll be Labour voters for life. It’s about the route to power.

[quote Pikachubaby]@MarriedtoDaveGrohl simple reason: they’ll be Labour voters for life. It’s about the route to power.[/quote]
Yes of course. That's it in a nutshell. It's why mayors like the tower hamlets one built so many houses for Bangladeshi cronies. If your voters are all beholden to you then you never lose power.

Mass immigration has driven down wages for the low skilled and pushed up the cost of housing. People who don't have the means to move at the drop of a hat are frozen in place watching their communities change. It's the working class who are affected negatively and it's the working class who get called knuckle dragging racists if they dare to speak out.

Absolutely spot on. The working class are the punching bag for the elites who ruin their lives and then have the temerity to accuse them of not being happy about it.

Simple reason: they’ll be Labour voters for life. It’s about the route to power.

Eh? Why would a Tory government want Labour voters for life? The Tories have been in power for over 10 years. They are all the same.

I replied to the poster who asked why “the left” did this

Tories are not “the left” imo

@monstermancs

Simple reason: they’ll be Labour voters for life. It’s about the route to power.

Eh? Why would a Tory government want Labour voters for life? The Tories have been in power for over 10 years. They are all the same.

To be fair, the UK has been subject to EU laws and human right laws, not Tory specific laws, in that time! That has probably had a greater bearing on immigration.

The thing about saying “well we did colonialism so we deserve the reverse flow” is that it seems to come from a mindset where the average British working class person had a say in colonialist policy. They did not. Elites enacted colonialism for the benefit of their class.

It was also a very different time. My white English grandparents on both sides emigrated to Canada over a hundred years ago because the newspapers told them it was a land opportunity that needed them. It was not even vaguely on their choice of mental options that Canada was already (very sparsely) inhabited and that those inhabitants might not want to be pushed off their land.

Blaming UK residents of 2012 for the behaviour of people over a hundred years ago is a very odd thing to do. Colonialism in the past does not justify open borders.

Plus it ended

So sick of it being trotted out

ecpr.eu/Filestore/PaperProposal/0a024033-53f0-460a-a56a-d780d5b61fa3.pdf

Perfect example of total transformation of culture and demographics: Tower Hamlets.

Wow, as much as I didn't agree with all of the original post, this thread has really turned into something nasty.

I'm not sure why the left seem to think that flooding this country with poorly educated, low skilled homophobic, misogynistic people who come without money or assets is the way forward but now they have it's not stopping.
Is that what we are? None of the issues you point out really apply to my country of origin except may be misogyny but no more than UK. But I see you also miss clarifying that this country kicks out white South Africans. But yeah, I will let you be. After all with my two, three-bedroom houses fully paid for, 10 years of work experience in international organisations, 4 years working at a University in Europe, a PhD, etc, am just an ignorant poor immigrant

@GingerScallop

Wow, as much as I didn't agree with all of the original post, this thread has really turned into something nasty.

I'm not sure why the left seem to think that flooding this country with poorly educated, low skilled homophobic, misogynistic people who come without money or assets is the way forward but now they have it's not stopping.
Is that what we are? None of the issues you point out really apply to my country of origin except may be misogyny but no more than UK. But I see you also miss clarifying that this country kicks out white South Africans. But yeah, I will let you be. After all with my two, three-bedroom houses fully paid for, 10 years of work experience in international organisations, 4 years working at a University in Europe, a PhD, etc, am just an ignorant poor immigrant

It's pretty lazy to accuse that poster of labelling "all" immigrants as such. Not the case.

The verb "flooding" certainly suggests the vast majority of immgrants are as described in that particularly unpleasant post.

@GingerScallop I'm labelling the poorly educated misogynistic homophobic immigrants as that. Not the ones that aren't. Half my staff are immigrants. Several of my friends are. I am.

But none of us are trying to impose our values on those around us or allowing those values to impact on how we treat women, or gay people. We came with something to offer (as in skills) and have never claimed benefits. As far as I know I there close to no people from any of our nationalities and/or societal groups in prison.

Don't extrapolate from my post any kind of blanket anti immigrant statement - not for me, but for you. You don't need to feel like that because it's hurtful for you and it's not true.

There's a tiny tiny subset of people who are genuinely racist and anti immigrant and I'm not one. Very few people are and I loathe them. So don't feel that the UK is anti your family's race because ultimately 99.9% of people judge people for who they are not what race they are.

I honestly don't care who people are I just want them to not add to the huge mass of anonymous arseholes London is full of. And many many immigrants feel the same way.

And it is 100% not about skin colour. It almost never is and putting words into my mouth or deciding you know how people think won't make you feel better.

@AuldAlliance

The verb "flooding" certainly suggests the vast majority of immgrants are as described in that particularly unpleasant post.

No, the term flooding implies there's an enormous amount of people that are of the type in that post - a significant amount. That's it.

@AuldAlliance

The verb "flooding" certainly suggests the vast majority of immgrants are as described in that particularly unpleasant post.

It feels like it in central London. Vast swathes of council housing, huge queues outside the gps, masses of high streets. Hundreds of thousands of private hire cabs driving aimlessly around. It's too much. Why can't people have a say in this? Why do they need to be made to feel like their rights don't matter?

Even the Dalai Lama says that encouraging everyone from the third world to come to the UK is wrong. It's wrong to drain those countries of their young men when we should be encouraging those countries to flourish and doing business with them.

It's also fucking arrogant to think that coming here is the best thing they can do for their futures. It's a cold crowded island and many countries could be amazing if the good people stayed.

And yes that's what flooding means. It refers to the sheer volume - nothing else and I actually don't understand what else it could mean.

Apparently Erdoğan, that king of freedom and tolerance, is now slagging off Macron for defending Secular values and calling him a fascist.

From BBC

“In the wake of the remarks, a French presidential official told AFP news agency that France's ambassador to Turkey was being recalled for consultations, and would be meeting Mr Macron.

"President Erdogan's comments are unacceptable. Excess and rudeness are not a method”

Oh the irony.

This is what the Turkish president said according to bbc
Mr Erdogan asked in a speech: "What's the problem of the individual called Macron with Islam and with the Muslims?"

He added: "Macron needs treatment on a mental level.

"What else can be said to a head of state who does not understand freedom of belief and who behaves in this way to millions of people living in his country who are members of a different faith?"

@acarp he is only practising freedom of speech, It is not the exclusive domain of the virtuous.

Surely President Macron's problem is with people who think they have the right to behead a French citizen in the the street in France?

@Trut

so you have a problem with Macron tackling Islamist extremism?

[quote mangoesforever]@Trut

so you have a problem with Macron tackling Islamist extremism?

[/quote]
I don't think this is what was meant here. It is being pointed out that everyone has the right to free speech, including people who are offensive. They do, they just need to be able to use their words rather than threats and violence. In fact, everyone should be allowed to say whatever they want, on the proviso that they then, defend their point of view and accept heckling.